What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?
- Thread starter dave
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What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?
Economics is silly from a human perspective, and now I can say I’ve actually studied it.
My cars worth like what £600-£800. And I’ve spent easily almost £2k on repairs etc. Bearing in mind I was given the car but it’d have been worth 1k a few years ago when I got it.
So for what, £3k let’s say.. I’ve got a car with a virtually new gearbox, timing all up to date, new tyres, new seals and bearings around the engine, 25,000 miles in two years, many other smaller components replaced (e.g. wiper motor).
That’s a hell of a lot of car and dependability added I to it for £3k.
Some people think that’s stupid. But it’s a car I love to drive and it just happens to be a cheap one that not many people look twice at.
If it was a 90s Range Rover I could also have gotten it for 1k .. but I’d have spent what, easily 8k redoing all the stuff I redid. <— now that’d be idiotic in my view.
My cars worth like what £600-£800. And I’ve spent easily almost £2k on repairs etc. Bearing in mind I was given the car but it’d have been worth 1k a few years ago when I got it.
So for what, £3k let’s say.. I’ve got a car with a virtually new gearbox, timing all up to date, new tyres, new seals and bearings around the engine, 25,000 miles in two years, many other smaller components replaced (e.g. wiper motor).
That’s a hell of a lot of car and dependability added I to it for £3k.
Some people think that’s stupid. But it’s a car I love to drive and it just happens to be a cheap one that not many people look twice at.
If it was a 90s Range Rover I could also have gotten it for 1k .. but I’d have spent what, easily 8k redoing all the stuff I redid. <— now that’d be idiotic in my view.
The issue is...for what you've spent you still have a leggy panda. You could have bought one with 30k miles on it and none of the issues you have addressed would have raised their heads for a long time for the same money.
I've been there, I spent a grand on 350 quid uno, 2500 on a 1100 quid punto and then did it all over again on another punto. The last punto then blew it's engine shortly after a full suspension rebuild...
I could have put another 600 quid into the 1500 quid punto and got her going again, someone else did..but all you are doing is putting your finger in the dam wall. After 6 years of being in and out of the garage every couple of months I had no stomach for it.
I get the emotional attachment, you've been through a lot with it and it gets to point where you've put too much in to cash out you'll never get it all back. But while I loved the cars I prefer my garage not to call me Mr Punto and have my number saved..
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At the same time you could spend even more keeping a more expensive car on the road when, with that same money, you could buy a pre-registered car with most of its warranty left. So, not only do you have a new car, a good chunk of the depreciation has already happened. It'll highly likely be dependable and very cheap to run. I guess what I'm saying is - why buy any second hand car if you're not prepared to have to shell out some money to keep it going?
Tbf we are pretty much coming at it from the same way..as far as I'm concerned though the point at which you say f**k this I'm done is further away the more expensive the car is. Fiats are not expensive or built to last and the cost of any major repair being higher than replacement comes up quite quickly.
At some point you reach the end of life phase for a car, at that point it's constant firefighting, wires start to degrade, rubber bushes perish, things corrode it just happens, if the car has low value working the numbers don't stack up and off to the crusher it goes.
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Yeah, but I’ve had it for almost two years now. If I get another 3+ out of it, then that’ll be well over my money’s worth. If I spent £3k on a few year old Panda, of the new shape, it’d be coming up to that age where it still would need the likes of the new timing belt etc. Yes, a nicer newer car. And I see your point. But, and it’s a big but, if I do get those next few years out of this one, and it’s well possible, but well likely something could blow as such.. it’ll be worth it.
But I’d have no issue taking it for a trip around the Wild Atlantic Way (west coat of Ireland from top to bottom) or a trip to London again etc. That’s part the reason I maintain it so well, I want it to be as dependable as possible. 2017 and the only money I’ve spent on it was a stupid dent I put in it. So the 2015 and 2016 self bankrupting is evening out at least!
So to summarise, yeah you’re right. But if I’m lucky I feel like I will have gotten my moneys worth. Or at least I’ll be happy I did so.
I don’t think most VW’s or BMW’s or Audi’s are built to last much longer than say, 12 years. Fiats are probably considered to have a lifespan of like, 10 years? But mines at 12, little surface rust and it runs better than 5 out of 6 VW Group TDI engined cars in my family. You can tell by listening to it idle and under loads!
I bought my 2004 (December registered) punto in July/Aug 2007 I then kept it for 8 years, in that time, it blew a seal on the water pump £140 for a new pump, needed a set of glow plugs at £60 fitted and had a new engine earth lead twice. It then had other regular stuff towards the end, new brakes, suspension arms and some bushings nothing expensive, but remember when I bought it, it was only just over 3 years old.
When I got it, it was immaculate, hardly any miles on the clock, well looked after and clean and tidy.
When I got rid of it the front subframe was rusting badly and will likely be the death of it. The underside was beging to rust especially around the back end. The interior was looking very tired, the seats had lost their shape and where dirty, almost impossible to clean, and if they got damp or wet the dirt in the stuffing would appear on there surface of the seats. The speaker for the stereo where beginning to die and sounded bad. There was nothing specifically wrong with it, but it was old, it was tired and it wasn't because it hadn't been looked after. The last MOT it had brought up a lot of issues, only advisories but they would need doing and be costly, I was doing silly miles at that point so it needed to go, I could not afford it to let be down on a 160mile trip across the country.
Realistically I could have spent the sort of money you have £2500 getting everything fixed, but the interior would still be tired, the exterior scratched and dented, it would still have rust which would only get worse and what ever I fixed there would still be something that could go wrong with it, a part not tested on the MOT or a part that you wouldn't routinely change.
Someone else can foot that bill and deal with it, I don't need to keep a car going for the sake of it, or for some nostalgic reason, I like many people need to get where I'm going without the hassle and running an old car in these circumstances isn't a reliable way to get there.
So yeah if you want to pile tons of money in, you can keep any old car going. I suspect the in the 8 year I had it, the cost of buying it and repairs came in under £5k. If you kept your panda for that length of time, how much Do you think it will have cost you, having already spent a couple of grand on it in a relatively short space of time. If the car is only now worth £600 and it needs a lot of work for the next MOT is it going to be worth spending £500 to get it through and having half a dozen advisories you still need to address, then it could break down, spring a leak, burst a pipe, at what point do you say 'enough is enough' as cars get older you're fighting fires, all the components are old and it's only a matter of time before one of them breaks, get that fixed and 10 minutes later another can let go.
This is the reason people bin old cars, not because they can't keep them going, but there comes a point, that it's just not worth the hassle.
That point can shift if you have a special attachment to a car but for the most part 99.99% of the time the car will find its way to the scrap man, even my 2015 golf will someday and in the grand scheme of things it's probably not that far away it's now 2 years old, it might last longer as it's a convertible, but maybe 15 years it will be on a scrap metal boat to china.
dtimmins1985
Established member
My old 1.2 stilo was exactly this.
I did a 25mile trip every day and bought the car for £650... first few months where fine... then a twang and £500 of repairs... it was good again... then an mot fail that was simply rear pads and a flexi... then the following year a wishbone and front pads and rear discs... then year after that it was emissions and 3 manifolds and a gearbox stabiliser mount... then a coil pack.. a service and three more coil packs... along with the key fob forgetting itself, a broken window etc.
At 2.5k spent in repairs and bits and bobs... the 3 year old car had done its bit for me... i sold it for £300 and bought my Multijet for £1200... (had to put £900 to it) and a hiked insurance policy but... there you go.
I sold it two weeks before its mot was due. Its still on the road but I doubt its current mot... when i sold it for £300... it needed new lambda sensors, wishbone, tyres and a new flexi... thats more than its worth...
Not to mention the nasty bodywork and dented wing and warped bumper.
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It is a shame that so few everyday cars survive much beyond 15 years: some "cheap" cars have much more imaginative design than the average executive car.
All of that still applies to a Golf, an old Merc and Range Rover too. Except the scale of the parts cost is more extortionate. Especially 2010+ examples.
I think the trend of investing in premium cars will end with the computer aspects of modern German cars.
And I think spending money on them, unless you’re a collector or museum manager is just as silly.
When you look at a cheap Fiat like mine, even the current models. The layout for the brakes and wheels etc, the layout of the engine bay etc... it’s all really really simple, easy to work with design. Probably a time when all the cars were made that way.
The Germans etc can market all they want, but they’ll never convince me that going to a main dealer to have a computer reset for a burnt out bulb is ‘superior engineering’. Ever.
It’s the low cost of genuine parts and easy to do myself (with my uncle ofc) aspect of Fiat that will keep my Panda on the road beyond any of the ‘better’ cars on the street beside it
The Germans etc can market all they want, but they’ll never convince me that going to a main dealer to have a computer reset for a burnt out bulb is ‘superior engineering’. Ever.
It’s the low cost of genuine parts and easy to do myself (with my uncle ofc) aspect of Fiat that will keep my Panda on the road beyond any of the ‘better’ cars on the street beside it
It does, aside from those very special cars with prancing horses, raging bulls or tridents on the bonnet, any mass produced car will reach a point that its worthless.... except that's not the case at all, because manufacturers like Ford and Vw make more than just a car, which is why people queue up now to pay £5k for an old golf gti £7k for an XR2i, or £100k for a sierra RS500
My brother had an e30 BMW, they have now reached the point they are gaining money at a silly rate. People love the old Mercedes SL cars from the 80s and 90s, as well as the 190 cosworths all these old cars are gaining value at an astonishing rate, the cheap brands like Hyundai, Kia, and sadly Fiat don't really have a comparable 70s/80s/90s cars because they just concentrated on making cheap cars.
I don't suspect my 2.0 litre diesel GT bluemotion will become a highly sort after classic in the future, however I do suspect the 4wd 270hp R will become sort after just like the old R32 golfs still command £5k when a normal mk4 sells for £500.
People keep banging on about computers in cars but let's be honest, cars have been filled with computers for the last 20 years, the average 5 year old panda had more computing power than the apollo mission, while the USB stick used to carry some music can contain all of the data gathered from those missions.
Back street garages can just as easily work on these cars as they did before, they buy a diagnostic machine and learn how new cars work and they carry on working on them. Code readers can be bought for a tenner for the DIY mechanics. As computers become more advanced so do the people using them.
The average cheap small car, even those made by Fiat, are full of blue tooth, satnav touch screens with USB, phone interfaces, for Apple play and android auto, computer controlled engines, instruments and interior lights. Simple cheap cars like your panda have already died.
With the onslaught of electric cars, there is no going back
I quite disagree that there’s a difference between the quality of Ford / VW to Fiat... I mean, sure, you pay more for the car. But as far as I’m concerned it’s perceived quality through marketing. I don’t see how VW have ever designed anything more special than Fiat. Some of their greatest innovations like the TDI engine are no more special than the MultiJet etc. They build faster cars yeah, but faster doesn’t make it better. And Audi? They’re not a single step above VW again, marketing and small tweaks to the same chassis and a different badge and For some reason people pay thousands more?! It’s madness.
Fair enough, it makes them a lot of money. But anybody who believes the nonsense that they’re getting a better quality product or that it’s any more a car than a cheaper Fiat is wrong to me.
What does VW do that Fiat don’t to make their products ‘better’? Apart from market a more appealing image about how it makes you a man.
I would absolutely argue that Fiat have had some special cars over the year. There’s definitely lively groups of guys on here who have restored almost every model. Just because there’s less of them than the cars that sold in bigger numbers wouldn’t have had an impact on why they chose to restore old Fiat’s.
They can pack all the image, power, badge engineering and the likes they want. But they’ll never capture the part of the market I aim to be a part of and that’s the unique city car / fully fledged off roader. Comical as it is remarkable, nothing seems to put a smile on someone’s face more than seeing a relatively ‘scronny’ little Fiat work it’s way trough the snow and mud! And then you look at the Cross. A beast but it has its own cult following amongst Fiat fans.
There might not be as many of us, but we do exist. And Fiat cars are just as special - maybe not as fast - but where does speed get you anyway? Wrapped around a pole and put into statistics.
Don’t forget as well, the Panda is the best selling 5 door car in Europe. For whatever reason, it seems to be the choice of many across a range of culturally and economically diverse and geographically difficult territories. Because it’s low price, boxy practical shape, lack of stupid overpowered and inefficient engines and no no nonsense ownership experience with 4x4 option means so much more to a lot of people than those who want to buy a car because a group of smart marketers were successful enough at manipulating them into it.
I’d fit in a lot more with people my age if I ranted about how great the Golf was.....but nobody has ever explained to me why it is so great. Not in any technical sense. So why would I (or any other owner of a Fiat car on here) abandon their own experience of owning a small but practical car just to continue the tradition of driving the same car half of the street drives.
Summary: special? Not to me. premium? Can’t see it. Certainly not in a way that can’t be said for even cheap makes like Fiat.
lol
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As SB1500 says, whilst it may be comparatively tiny compared to that enjoyed by ford or vw, since I've been a member of this forum, I have realised that Fiats do have a very passionate following in this country. Almost every model has a group of people who love them, from people who merely own the newer models, to those who restore and maintain the older Fiats.
I can't begin to imagine the sheer enthusiasm for Fiat that there must be in Italy.
I can't begin to imagine the sheer enthusiasm for Fiat that there must be in Italy.
Forgive for chopping the post down but it would be a huge post if I didn't
While I do understand you are passionate you are about your car. I like mk3 pandas they reminded me of my mk1 punto when I've driven them.
But I look at it this way, there are two ways cars get to old age. By being expensive or by being reliable. Expensive we've covered already, it makes economic sense to repair for longer. Reliable well couple of examples for you, my dad has an 05 focus, it's a car he's had from new, it's been one major failure away from getting it's marching orders for about 4 years. But it just keeps going, from new it's had fewer replacement parts than your panda has had in the last 2 years.
The Moderator of the Mazda 3 forum bought an 04 saloon at 2 years old, obviously it's now 13 years old, it has done 120k+ miles. It still looks immaculate and has had a grand total of an aircon compressor and a wheel bearing replaced to cover that distance.
Both of these cars are effectively worthless if you want a new car maybe 500-1000 trade in but they work like they did when they left the factory. So their owners don't get rid as there is no incentive to do so.
You've totally missed my point, and if you read back I made no reference to quality. You stated that all German cars would eventually become worthless. Without making any comparison to quality, there are German cars and fords and other brands that go on to make some really iconic cars over the years which make them increase in value. The XR2i was a terrible car, especially by today's standards, doesn't mean that people aren't falling over themselves to snap up good quality examples for several grand, Ford, volkswagen, BMW, Mercedes, Audi, even Peugeot (205 gti) Renault (alpine) and Citroen (SM, DS) have their iconic cars that won't die.
Yes there are Fiat enthusiasts, otherwise we'd not be here, but aside from the old 500, which wasn't that popular till they relaunched the 500 in 2007. Fiat don't really have iconic cars like the others.
What makes a lot of the Fords more valuable is that they were poor quality and renowned for rusting away meaning there are few good examples about. And RS500 sold a couple of weeks back upward of £100,000 because of its condition and originallity, my point here was that I can't think of a Fiat that fits this category of car. Yes any 60s era car is worth a few quid now, but almost everything Fiat has made since the 70s has been pretty unremarkable, and while there will be people who keep the odd car going here and there, there will never be the iconic cars like the golf GTI the cosworths and AMGs, the XR, RS, M cars. These are all iconic cars that have high prices now, this sometimes means that good condition lesser cars such as a mk1 golf GL still have a higher price than they perhaps should.
It's got tbithing to do with innovation or quality, these are he cars people dreamed of owning and will go out decades later to try and buy, now they have the available cash. It's not something that Fiat have been ever really able to capture, neither do a lot of cheaper car brands like Hyundai, Kia, etc.
I still maintain the last proper Italian Fiat, with a proper Italian flare and passion was the Fiat Dino, is give my right arm for one, they are a stunning beautiful car with a proper engine. Sadly though they stopped making cars like this nearly 45 years ago.
I don't dislike fiats, I just don't feel passionately about them they don't really have any Italian flare or passion which is why they get scrapped so young, however note that he current 500 has shaken this trend and used prices for 9-10 year old cars are still very good, however they have yet to recapture that with any subsequent models, like the 500L and 500x
This thread has gone way off topic, and is not actually getting anywhere. Is it about time either to just stop this discussion, or start a new thread for discussion of reliability, classic status, etc.
Personally I think there are many people driving cars that are out of their financial comfort zone. If ignoring major component failure you cannot reasonably expect to repair faults without impact on daily routine then surely that cars not for that person. Most wealthy people don't see the impact of repairs as the first owner, warranty and newness. However a few years down the line and a second hand luxury car on finance with a heavy repair bill is just too much for many families, we don't have much money and if my GP went to the garage for everything it needed we probably wouldn't afford that but as it's an in house job and we own it that's how it's viable for us. We also know someone with two Aston martins and he never bats an eyelid when they go to the garage. He is not surprisingly slightly better off than us.
You will always end up paying in one way or another. Buy a new car, in 3 years at least half that money you put in has wandered off. Even buying second hand at 3 years depreciation will still be your biggest motoring cost, if slightly less eye watering. Buy an older car and it's going to cost some money to keep going, obviously your choice of old car will determine if that's a large or small amount of money.
Cars are an expensive business regardless of what you buy. I worked out my motoring costs the other month for 3 years of driving including buying it depreciation, servicing, fuel, insurance, tax e.t.c. car owes me 14 grand only 8.5 of which was buying it. That includes 1 repair (drop link) other wise nothing that wasn't wear and tear parts (tyres and brakes) or scheduled servicing.
Cars are an expensive business regardless of what you buy. I worked out my motoring costs the other month for 3 years of driving including buying it depreciation, servicing, fuel, insurance, tax e.t.c. car owes me 14 grand only 8.5 of which was buying it. That includes 1 repair (drop link) other wise nothing that wasn't wear and tear parts (tyres and brakes) or scheduled servicing.
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