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Old 16-01-2020   #1516
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Quote Originally Posted by The Panda Nut View Post
Brings back memories of my Mum.
My mum also drove into old age. She had two great loves, Horses and sporty cars. The last car she had was an MGB GT and it was this car which, along with failing health, finally made her realize she had to give up when she found she could only exit the vehicle by shuffling backwards out of the car onto the ground with her backside before then turning over so she could stand up. Try doing that on a wet windy day or in the snow!

There were occasions when her driving terrified me. Probably the most troubling was when, in my early teens (and by then I'd been tearing around the fields in pickups and old cars learning all about steering on the throttle, how to apply opposite lock and do what they now a days call drifting) She completely lost control of our MK2 3.8 Jag in the snow. The car started to go sideways and I was sitting waiting for her to apply opposite lock but instead she took her hands off the wheel entirely. We arrived at the next corner somewhat sideways and, by some miracle, pointing into the bend. The tyres gripped and on we went round the bend. It was a left hand bend, had it been a right hand one we would have been off into the undergrowth! She was a very accomplished horsewoman and told me she thought cars were very like horses. So, just as you would loosen the reins on a horse which was loosing it's footing so it could "have it's head" so too you should let the steering "have it's head" by letting go of the wheel if the car was in "difficulty"! Amazingly I don't think she ever had an accident?
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Old 17-01-2020   #1517
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Quote Originally Posted by Pugglt Auld Jock View Post
She completely lost control of our MK2 3.8 Jag in the snow. The car started to go sideways and I was sitting waiting for her to apply opposite lock but instead she took her hands off the wheel entirely. We arrived at the next corner somewhat sideways and, by some miracle, pointing into the bend. The tyres gripped and on we went round the bend. It was a left hand bend, had it been a right hand one we would have been off into the undergrowth! She was a very accomplished horsewoman and told me she thought cars were very like horses. So, just as you would loosen the reins on a horse which was loosing it's footing so it could "have it's head" so too you should let the steering "have it's head" by letting go of the wheel if the car was in "difficulty"! Amazingly I don't think she ever had an accident?
Oddly enough pro-drifters use a similar technique, in that when initiating a drift they cannot wind the opposite lock on fast enough to counter but they can release the wheel and let the front wheels find the required angle. If you release the wheel they will effectively follow the line of least resistance which in a drift automatically applies opposite lock. It also lets them find grip as you are no longer scrubbing them across the tarmac, but usually on the public road you don't have the space to let this happen.

However they do have cars with extremely fancy steering systems designed to help this...and massive available steering angle.
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Old 17-01-2020   #1518
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Quote Originally Posted by StevenRB45 View Post
Oddly enough pro-drifters use a similar technique, in that when initiating a drift they cannot wind the opposite lock on fast enough to counter but they can release the wheel and let the front wheels find the required angle. If you release the wheel they will effectively follow the line of least resistance which in a drift automatically applies opposite lock. It also lets them find grip as you are no longer scrubbing them across the tarmac, but usually on the public road you don't have the space to let this happen.

However they do have cars with extremely fancy steering systems designed to help this...and massive available steering angle.
Having spent a number of years before I was old enough to get my licence charging around the fields and estate tracks and learning a lot about car control in the process I managed to find enough money, with the help of my father, to buy a 1275 Cooper S in my later teen years. I thought, with all this experience of loose surface driving, that I'd make a "magic" rally driver and spent a couple of years proving, quite spectacularly, to myself and everyone else that I really wasn't fast enough!

One of the things this sort of competitive driving quickly teaches you is that it's not the initial winding on of opposite lock to control an oversteer situation which is the problem. It's when the rear wheels bite again and flick the vehicle over into oversteer in the other direction. To counter this you need to go, in the most extreme situations, very quickly from full lock in one direction to full lock the other way and then be ready to do it again! You can think about and talk about doing this as much as you like but the only way to learn it is to do it (check out your nearest skid pan for courses) You'll very quickly learn that feeding the wheel through from hand to hand in the "approved" technique is not going to work. Learning that you could buy a "quick rack" back in the '60's was an absolute revelation - but failed to make me any quicker! Think I was too worried about hurting the car and found it impossible to disconnect the self preservation part of my brain.
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Old 17-01-2020   #1519
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Quote Originally Posted by Pugglt Auld Jock View Post
Think I was too worried about hurting the car and found it impossible to disconnect the self preservation part of my brain.
Makes perfect sense on open roads, but in a rally car that's what full harness belts, roll cage, crash hat, knee and elbow pads are about.

By the way countering a sliding bike takes some getting your head round. If the front end slips left, you have to flick the steering to the right - basically pull it up with the lowest handlebar. The momentary opposite lock creates a cornering force that lifts the bike out of the slide. If its really slippery you carry on down. If you do the "obvious" thing and steer the other way your next stop will be the scene of the crash.
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Old 17-01-2020   #1520
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Smile Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Quote Originally Posted by Pugglt Auld Jock View Post
One of the things this sort of competitive driving quickly teaches you is that it's not the initial winding on of opposite lock to control an oversteer situation which is the problem. It's when the rear wheels bite again and flick the vehicle over into oversteer in the other direction. To counter this you need to go, in the most extreme situations, very quickly from full lock in one direction to full lock the other way and then be ready to do it again! You can think about and talk about doing this as much as you like but the only way to learn it is to do it (check out your nearest skid pan for courses) You'll very quickly learn that feeding the wheel through from hand to hand in the "approved" technique is not going to work. Learning that you could buy a "quick rack" back in the '60's was an absolute revelation - but failed to make me any quicker! Think I was too worried about hurting the car and found it impossible to disconnect the self preservation part of my brain.
Don't worry wasn't saying she was doing the right thing! It's not releasing the wheel that's the skill in drifting it's the throttle control and knowing when to take active control again.

One of the reasons modern ESP is so effective at reducing single vehicle accidents is it stops the rotation before you get into a "tank slapper". If you are sliding it'll brake the outside rear wheel on the side that is pulling it straight, then if you'd put opposite lock on it'll pull the other back brake to stop the movement the other way.

Got a live demonstration of this on some diesel a few years ago..would have been fun if it wasn't occurring 3 feet from a lamp post.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #1521
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Washing winter crap off car...good..

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The state of the car underneath...baaad. Rear arches are really not happy rust bubbles inside the lips at the rear.

The under side is just covered in a smooth layer which is a mixture of clay soil, water and salt. Bit young for it to be rotting but all think of as I pull handfuls of mud, grit and salt out of the arches is "You poor thing".

Hate where I live for this, it's lovely for most things but salt 6 months a year at least, mud and clay in the summer it. Cars just don't have a chance unless you wash it on a ramp!!

It is pretty much going to be our second car from this year hopefully so it's fine for winter beater duties.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #1522
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

It's a Mazda also see MX5. My Panda is light years ahead in rust resistance!
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #1523
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Quote Originally Posted by Maybemaybenot View Post
It's a Mazda also see MX5. My Panda is light years ahead in rust resistance!
It is, tbf she'll last long enough.

They've got better over the years but everything rots here 2 of my Fiats suffered from ventilation in the sills..
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #1524
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

I'm half way through finishing the new metal and subsequent 'rust proofing' on an mx5 lol
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #1525
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Quote Originally Posted by Maybemaybenot View Post
I'm half way through finishing the new metal and subsequent 'rust proofing' on an mx5 lol
It's not Mk1 Mx5 bad by any means but whoever fitted carpet soundproofing that holds salt and water against the inside of the rear arch needs to be kicked in the face.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #1526
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Rear sill/arch, they never learn
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #1527
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Indeed,

tbf it was a cheap car (for what it was) when I got it 6 years ago, it's just the family hack so there's about a 90% chance of me just leaving it until it fails an MOT in some years. It's still very solid currently and the side skirts will probably hide the worst of it for a long time.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #1528
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

It's well worth repairing it, and getting it rustproofed, so it'll last you even longer. I had my Grande waxoyled 3 years ago, and it's still absolutely rock solid underneath.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #1529
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Quote Originally Posted by puntofan01 View Post
It's well worth repairing it, and getting it rustproofed, so it'll last you even longer. I had my Grande waxoyled 3 years ago, and it's still absolutely rock solid underneath.
We'll see how I feel when the weather breaks in April or so!

No point in doing anything atm, I did 6 miles to a play group this morning and had to use the washers 10 times due to the amount of salt spray.

I'm on the fence given it's going to the OH to replace the C3 at which point cosmetic issues are going to be the least of worries. There's about a 75% chance that between her and my son it'll be hammered into the ground like a tent peg within 2-3 years or end up in a scrappage scheme when she sorts her finances out.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #1530
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Fair enough.
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