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Old 26-11-2004   #1
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RAC Lombard Revival Rally

http://www.endurorally.com/

This rally is running atm. It harks back to the "good old days" of Rally GB when it was a British rally and not the Welsh international rally. There is a super special on in B/Pool tomorrow, but looks like its back to the forrest on Saturday.

Also it is the Grizedale Stages on Dec 4th (next weekend) http://www.grizedalestages.co.uk/.
You gotta go and see the Hyundi WRC that attends every year. Dunno what the guy has done to the wastegate/turbo on that car but it doesn't half kick you in the chest as it goes past
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Old 26-11-2004   #2
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Re: RAC Lombard Revival Rally

Is there any TV coverage?
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Old 26-11-2004   #3
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Re: RAC Lombard Revival Rally

Coverage will be on Channel 5, I think, for terrestial viewers and at least Motors TV for digital.

cheers

D
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Old 26-11-2004   #4
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Re: RAC Lombard Revival Rally

Quote Originally Posted by GeX
You gotta go and see the Hyundi WRC that attends every year. Dunno what the guy has done to the wastegate/turbo on that car but it doesn't half kick you in the chest as it goes past
The score with a World Rally Car is this. They are restricted by a 34mm hole on the inlet side of the turbo. This can't flow enough air much above 5500 rpm, so the engines are all putting out about the FIA maximum of 300BHP. Some manufacturers have openly admitted that they are getting 330, but it still ain't a lot. Where the clever bit comes in, is that the tuning is then biased towards improving the torque and these cars have well over 500ft/lb.

To maintain the turbo spinning when the throttle is closed the anti lag part of the ECU dumps neat fuel into the turbo to keep it spinning, hence the popping and banging that goes on.

The heat generated is ferocious, all exhaust parts have to be clad in ceramic heat shielding.

Cheers

D
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Old 26-11-2004   #5
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Re: RAC Lombard Revival Rally

I used to love the Lombard Rally. I used to go to the Special Stage at Clumber Park on the Sunday and they normally used to have a Classic rally beforehand in the morning. Last time I was at Clumber was 1990. Used to be great on the way home being passed by Rally cars in the dark on the A1, on their way Northwards.

They had a special stage through Scunthorpe Steelworks once. I went to that but can't remember what year that was. Also went to the stages through Dalby Forest a few times.


Ah the good old days, when it was a proper rally......
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Old 26-11-2004   #6
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Re: RAC Lombard Revival Rally

I have heard of that method as part of the anti-lag system but i have not heard it so loud on any other cars. There is usually other ex-WRC cars in the event but they aren't as noisy.

Unfortunately i am not old enough to have attended many of the Lombard events, (1994 woulda made me 9yrs) but i do remember some.
I remember goin to Tatton park for a couple of years and also some stages on the Scottish boarders, Kielder Forrest i think.
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Old 26-11-2004   #7
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Re: RAC Lombard Revival Rally

the SS tonight chris, or saturday night - i presume we're going, im leaving for blackpool ar around 2
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Old 26-11-2004   #8
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Re: RAC Lombard Revival Rally

Quote Originally Posted by rallycinq
The score with a World Rally Car is this. They are restricted by a 34mm hole on the inlet side of the turbo. This can't flow enough air much above 5500 rpm, so the engines are all putting out about the FIA maximum of 300BHP. Some manufacturers have openly admitted that they are getting 330, but it still ain't a lot. Where the clever bit comes in, is that the tuning is then biased towards improving the torque and these cars have well over 500ft/lb.

To maintain the turbo spinning when the throttle is closed the anti lag part of the ECU dumps neat fuel into the turbo to keep it spinning, hence the popping and banging that goes on.

The heat generated is ferocious, all exhaust parts have to be clad in ceramic heat shielding.

Cheers

D
Have a look at this for cleaverness from Toyota http://freespace.virgin.net/shalco.com/tte_ban.htm

It so happens I was speaking to a guy last week who has the 1992 Juha Kankkunan integrale EVO rally car (valued at £120,000 the ignition system alone was £45,000!!!!!!). He now has it deresticted & running under Group B rules & it easily achieves over 400bhp and has a torque jump from 100lbs to over 400lbs in only 200rpm! It's more like a 90degree wall than a slope which means they have never been able to get a proper figure for it off any rolling road they have tried it on because they can't handle the jump

As an aside, the next purchase for my integrale next year will be an Evo Engineering ceramic coated manifold and s/s exhaust which frees up nearly 30bhp on its own, but it does cost nearly £1400 for the lot,

Aaron.
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Old 26-11-2004   #9
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Re: RAC Lombard Revival Rally

OK, please forgive my ignorance, because I'm no mechanic and I don't know what restrictions are imposed on the vehicles. I was wondering, baring in mind the normal problems with turbo's having a lag before cutting in at whatever revs, could they not use super chargers? I assume they are not allowed to.
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Old 26-11-2004   #10
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Re: RAC Lombard Revival Rally

Quote Originally Posted by Neofolis
OK, please forgive my ignorance, because I'm no mechanic and I don't know what restrictions are imposed on the vehicles. I was wondering, baring in mind the normal problems with turbo's having a lag before cutting in at whatever revs, could they not use super chargers? I assume they are not allowed to.
The problem with superchargers is they actually consume power as well as creating it, so there comes a point where they become inefficient, but they have no lag being belt driven, and you can't just wind up the boost like a turbo because it is constrained by the speed the belts turns. Thats why you find superchargers don't get used that often. OK the MINI Cooper S has one, which shows what can be done with an old Chrysler engine, tis true the MINI engine is same as the Neon that thoroughbred of a car, but the rumour is that the MK2 will be turbo charged with a better BMW designed engine.

Turbos don't consume any power at all being driven by the exhaust gasses, therefore the are more efficient and can spool up to any speed creating almost endless amounts of power, but of course you have lag as the exhaust gases build up, the bigger the turbo the bigger the lag, but engines and turbo's are getting better all the time & the noticeable lag in some modern turbos is neg liable, SAAB, Volvo the VW/Audi group all do low boost non-lag turbo engines now.

Lancia tried to overcome this with the Delta S4 which had both, a small supercharger to gain lots of low down torque & over come the lag & a big turbo to kick in when the supercharger wained, it worked as it produced over 600bhp from 1.8L.

Hope that helps in answering your question.

Aaron.

edited to say; they are not banned just not as good as turbo's!
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Old 26-11-2004   #11
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Re: RAC Lombard Revival Rally

Well answered thank you. I assume it would be pointless using a naturally aspirated engine of 300BHP, because the engine would have to be too large and heavy. Would that be correct?
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Old 27-11-2004   #12
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Re: RAC Lombard Revival Rally

The current formula was arrived at to allow manufacturers of non turbo two wheel drive cars to compete.

The basic regs are that they must use a body shell from a current production model, subject to minimum length (Hence the extended bumpers on a special production run of Peugeot 206s to get that shell homologated)

They must use a current production engine of up to two litres capacity that can be turbocharged.

Although 300 BHP is possible from two litres, in most rallying applications torque is much more important and I don't think 500+ ft/lb is possible without a blower.

Obviously a four wheel drive kit can be fitted along with an aero kit. Each of these parts must be homologated and additional parts can only be homologated once a year, and only if the team is competeing in the whole WRC.

Skoda got special dispensation from the other teams to have an evolutionary homologation this year even though they only did some of the rounds.

I'll get me anorak!!!

Cheers

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Old 27-11-2004   #13
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Re: RAC Lombard Revival Rally

As did Mitsubishi as they left the competition for a year, then came back last year for a few rounds, as they no longer base their WRC on the road going model, as it was no longer competitive against the current French flyer's that have ruled WRC now for a few years.

Although things are in for drastic changes now that both Peugeot & Citroen have announced they will no longer support WRC after next season as it's to expensive. Ford also announced they will stay in it for the next 4 years even tho they're having difficulties with money at the moment, hence the sell off of the F1 team & Cosworth engine makers.

Rumours are Colin Macrea will be back next year with Skoda!

I would 2nd what was said above about an NA engine, it would never be competitive as it would need to rev to a very high level to achieve 300bhp as although possible it would make the engine much more expensive to develop than a turbo'd one, plus it would never make the torque, to give an example an F1 engine makes 900bhp+ but only something like 500lbft of torque as the torque is not so critical in a car that weighs 600kgs on a super smooth race track as opposed to a 1300kgs rally car that has to scale peaks, deserts, ice, snow etc etc.

There is the junior series in rallying I think up to 1600cc NA FWD is the regulations, might have changed since I last looked, but this is why you get genuine homologation cars like a Pug 106 Rallye (as raced by Vicki Butler-Henderson cos I saw her at last years Rally Sunseeker in Bournemouth in it) or the new Citroen C2 GT where they have to build 2500 models to get homologation approval.

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Old 27-11-2004   #14
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Re: RAC Lombard Revival Rally

Looks like this post, which started off about a revival of rallying in the past has done that special FF thing, and gone a bit off topic. I think I'll start a new thread.

See you over there if you are interested.

Cheers

D
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Old 27-11-2004   #15
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Re: RAC Lombard Revival Rally

Oh I don't know. It's all about rally cars...
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