I suspect people selling petrol to uninsured (keyless) drivers will expect a huge return on their investment so possibly making it cheaper in the long run to just get insurance?

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Many uninsured drivers are already disqualified or have never held a driving licence so getting insurance isn't an option.

And why aren't car details scrutinised more closely? OK, there are millions of vehicles out there but computers have the capacity to check 100s of ANPR each minute - so how comes uninsured cars can even be around? As soon as insurance expires, a red flag should be raised on a central database (which I assume police, DVLA and insurance all subscribe to), so why isn't a local forced immediately informed of an uninsured vehicle registered on their patch? OK, so it takes people to go round there but why retire good officers early when they could be put to use for this sort of thing - especially if fines were set so high as to pay wages?

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Firstly a huge number of uninsured vehicles are not registered to anybody that actually exists so tracing the registered keeper is nigh on impossible, secondly, and assuming you find the registered keeper, you then need to prove who was driving the car at the time, lastly the courts can fine people but can't make them pay the fine, they can of course imprison them for non payment but this actually costs the taxpayer more than the outstanding fine.

Stu DemonD said:

Tried giving Sky Insurance or Chris Knott a ring - both run forum schemes!

I just put my business with Sky only last week.

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I have just renewed with Sky also. £720 ALL mods declared and like for like replacement. 4 years NCB at 26y/o. Thats a drop of £130 from last year.

Just rang SKY, offered me a 20% discount etc for being a member here.

Rememebr, my insurance last year was £320. Best I could get this year through confused.com, £567
Off street parking in private car park.
Car owned from new. 12. 8v punto. Bought 2001.
9 years no claims.
Only use the car to socialise, less than 500 miles a year.
Always insure fully comp.

SKY refused me fully comp saying my car was worth too little and instead could only offer me 3rd person fire and theft... = £679 :nutter:

Time to declare the car off the road and give up. I appreciate all the hlp guys, but got to admit when I am beaten.

Reaper said:

SKY refused me fully comp saying my car was worth too little

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And forgetting all the other benefits FC gives you Sound like numpties.

I ended up paying £375 via Sky, only £25 cheaper than Chris Knott, but the same as my premium last year.

That includes Class 1 Business use, all mods declared and covered, plus courtesy car if car stolen, etc.

Gaz37 said:

In theory driving whilst disqualified is imprisonable but it rarely ever happens,

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Tell that to the defendant we sent to jail this morning. Banned for drink driving on wednesday, caught driving his car on thursday, sent to jail on friday.

Gaz37 said:

equally breaching a community punishment (unpaid work) order is no biggy in terms of sentencing.

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Commonest sentence for breach a community order is to revoke the order and re sentence for the original offence, taking into account the defendants failure to abide by a court order. Off to jail he goes. Which is exactly what happened to the defendant we jailed today.

Gaz37 said:

I worked in the courts for five years and the sentences handed out were a joke.

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Some sentences do seem low especially to people who can only go by what they read in the papers which is never the full story.

In general people believe that sentences are far too low. Until its them or one of their family in the dock, at which point sentences become far too severe.

Gaz37 said:

Many uninsured drivers are already disqualified or have never held a driving licence so getting insurance isn't an option.

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My experience dealing with no insurance cases in court is exactly the opposite. Only a small percentage have no licence, most of them do. It would be interesting to find out if there are any official figures on the subject.

Gaz37 said:

Firstly a huge number of uninsured vehicles are not registered to anybody that actually exists so tracing the registered keeper is nigh on impossible, secondly, and assuming you find the registered keeper, you then need to prove who was driving the car at the time, lastly the courts can fine people but can't make them pay the fine, they can of course imprison them for non payment but this actually costs the taxpayer more than the outstanding fine.

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The continuous insurance or SORN laws mean that an uninsured car can be seized and crushed with no idea who the owner is. I doubt if the fact that it costs more to lock somebody up than the fine was worth is of any consolation to the people spending yet another night in a small locked room they are sharing with somebody they don't know.

Gaz37 said:

Many uninsured drivers are already disqualified or have never held a driving licence so getting insurance isn't an option.



Firstly a huge number of uninsured vehicles are not registered to anybody that actually exists so tracing the registered keeper is nigh on impossible, secondly, and assuming you find the registered keeper, you then need to prove who was driving the car at the time, lastly the courts can fine people but can't make them pay the fine, they can of course imprison them for non payment but this actually costs the taxpayer more than the outstanding fine.

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But all forecourts reckon to take pics of plates so they can fine for non-payment, why not simply link them to ANPR? As soon as they turn into the station the ANPR would alert the local force. And never mind all this "who was driving at the time" malarky, the car was on the road therefore it's off to the crusher.
There will always be those who find a loophole but surely it is better to make things as difficult as possible for these people rather than simply do nothing?

I'm sick and tired of seeing my insurance going up whilst I continually keep out of trouble - hence the suggestion for something which may or may not work. The only other thing which springs to mind is to offer free insurance with every tank of fuel. (Total did 2 weeks' breakdown free with a tank of fuel recently)
Or simply assume that everyone over the age of 17 owns a vehicle and increase their national insurance payments to include vehicle insurance - so everyone has the same cover etc. For the unemployed, simply reduce their benefits by £5 per week. (if someone has a prang, increase their 'contribution' to the pot. and maybe 3 claims in 1 year = 1 year driving ban). At least then insurance will be centralised. there will still be a problem with pikeys etc who are off the radar but maybe still link to the insurance key idea with a facility to top up online, via mobile etc so someone still has to be in the system.
Would anyone else care to come up with a way to get more cars insured?

Slightly off topic. We were watching a police prog & a handfull of tasty patrol cars took a right beating trying to stop an idiot driver. My youngest suggested that they use all the decent confiscated motors, chuck some graphics on them, a set of blues & twos etc (perhaps a portable unit could be transferred?) and use them to ram the idiots. Instead of spending thousands repairing police cars, the confiscated motors could then be taken straight down the scrappy (and get paid for scrapping it!) - win-win for the force.

johnw said:

My experience dealing with no insurance cases in court is exactly the opposite. Only a small percentage have no licence, most of them do. It would be interesting to find out if there are any official figures on the subject.


The continuous insurance or SORN laws mean that an uninsured car can be seized and crushed with no idea who the owner is. I doubt if the fact that it costs more to lock somebody up than the fine was worth is of any consolation to the people spending yet another night in a small locked room they are sharing with somebody they don't know.

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And hopefully said small locked room has a very overpowering odour of stale pee and sick :devil:

johnw said:

Tell that to the defendant we sent to jail this morning. Banned for drink driving on wednesday, caught driving his car on thursday, sent to jail on friday.

Commonest sentence for breach a community order is to revoke the order and re sentence for the original offence, taking into account the defendants failure to abide by a court order. Off to jail he goes. Which is exactly what happened to the defendant we jailed today.


Some sentences do seem low especially to people who can only go by what they read in the papers which is never the full story.

In general people believe that sentences are far too low. Until its them or one of their family in the dock, at which point sentences become far too severe.

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You clearly have better magistrates in your area than we do

Around here breaches of CPOs are dealt with by telling the defendant not to be so naughty and allowing the order to continue

I've also seen people with numerous previous diaqualifications walking free even after being caught dwd whilst drunk

sludgeguts said:

And never mind all this "who was driving at the time" malarky, the car was on the road therefore it's off to the crusher.


.

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You're absolutely right that would be good, but in order to convict somebody of driving without insurance you need to be able to indentify the driver.

Unfortunately the Police don't have the resources to check petrol station cctv to track down uninsured drivers, they're all far too busy wading through knee deep red tape and paperwork or attending training courses to learn how not to offend various minority groups.

sludgeguts said:

And hopefully said small locked room has a very overpowering odour of stale pee and sick :devil:

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Regreattably no, they do however have TVs, drink making facilities and sometimes games consols

Not forgetting three meals a day and all their laundry done for them.

Customer loyalty at her majesty's hotels is very good, the Holiday Inn should be envious of their repeat business

Offtopic:

I worked for London probation 4 years.

In my borough, when an offender breached a CO, the most common scenario was back to court, where the judge would usually say the order is unworkable and revoke it. The guy would walk..

Many of the offenders had excellent relations with the judges and knew how to use them well. Also many of the probation officers were lazy and their whole life's ambition revolved around lowering their individual case loads and avoiding blame when something went wrong.

There is very little fear in London of ever doing some serious time. Prisons are always trying to get their inmates released early on HDCs etc even when they were not near their capacity.

I would be careful when defending our justice system, just as I would when someone tries to find excuses for why the insurance companies have to rip off their customers..

If you want to see a country that does not know how to drive safely, go to France. Why is their insurance cheaper?

Gaz37 said:

Regreattably no, they do however have TVs, drink making facilities and sometimes games consols

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Some youth centres for people under 18 have that sort of thing for people doing long sentences, but they have to be earned by good behaviour and progress. Prisoners in adult jails can also earn some priviledges such as a TV. They are still locked in, with no choice of who they share with and are restricted in what they can watch and how long they can watch for. The punishment is loss of liberty not loss of coronation street.

Gaz37 said:

Not forgetting three meals a day and all their laundry done for them.

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I wouldn't care to eat the food, the laundry is done by some of the prisoners (usually the ones who can't be trusted with a better job) . Also the clothing is communal, so the underwear a prisoner is issued with won't be what he wore last week and may well have somebody else's skid marks in it.

.

Reaper said:

In my borough, when an offender breached a CO, the most common scenario was back to court, where the judge would usually say the order is unworkable and revoke it. The guy would walk..

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That goes against all the rules and would provoke an appeal by the CPS. Any judge who was that slack would be in real trouble.

Reaper said:

Many of the offenders had excellent relations with the judges and knew how to use them well.

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They certainly can't get on friendly terms with a judge in open court, so where do they meet? Do they all drink in the same pub?

Reaper said:

I would be careful when defending our justice system,

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I don't defend the justice system, it is what the politicians want it to be and defending the system would mean taking sides in a political debate. I just use my experience of working in the system to try to correct some of the incorrect assertions that are put forward as fact.

johnw said:

. I just use my experience of working in the system to try to correct some of the incorrect assertions that are put forward as fact.

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Oddly, I was doing the same.

We clearly have very different experiences

Reaper said:

Just rang SKY, offered me a 20% discount etc for being a member here.

Rememebr, my insurance last year was £320. Best I could get this year through confused.com, £567
Off street parking in private car park.
Car owned from new. 12. 8v punto. Bought 2001.
9 years no claims.
Only use the car to socialise, less than 500 miles a year.
Always insure fully comp.

SKY refused me fully comp saying my car was worth too little and instead could only offer me 3rd person fire and theft... = £679 :nutter:

Time to declare the car off the road and give up. I appreciate all the hlp guys, but got to admit when I am beaten.

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have you enquired about those boxes that insurance companies fit to your car that might drop ur premium

johnw said:

the underwear a prisoner is issued with won't be what he wore last week and may well have somebody else's skid marks in it.

.

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Bl00dy luxury.

Gaz37 said:

Unfortunately the Police don't have the resources to check petrol station cctv to track down uninsured drivers, they're all far too busy wading through knee deep red tape and paperwork or attending training courses to learn how not to offend various minority groups.

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Yes they do. A friend paid for petrol on a Stolen credit card. The police followed it up, went and got the CCTV which lead to a conviction. He got community service and then ordered him to court every time he had to miss it to proove it was for a valid reason.
Sometimes they get things right.

volxstu said:

Yes they do. A friend paid for petrol on a Stolen credit card. The police followed it up, went and got the CCTV which lead to a conviction. He got community service and then ordered him to court every time he had to miss it to proove it was for a valid reason.
Sometimes they get things right.

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Yes but that wasn't an offence of uninsured driving.

Rightly or wrongly fraud/theft is considered more serious than driving with no insurance so greater efforts are made to secure evidence and prosecute the offender.

A cynic might say this has something to do with our Police forces being obsessed with statistics and that theft is, for crime recording figures, a "detected crime" whereas driving with no insurance isn't.