cam belt should have been tight enough to pull the speed of the cams down to the speed of the crank. If it skipped a couple of notches then it simply wasn't tight enough.

There are enough owners on here who put it to the limiter and then take the next gear and repeat without problem. Get the compression checked and then put it to them that the car wasn't put together correct.

It could be piston ring/ bore surface damage if this was a new engine that was over revved.
Compression test would find this.
Garage can test whether it bore/ring damage or valves by putting a little oil in the plug holes if compression is down.
You have to be careful with new engines despite what popular opinion may have you think.
Even then, if you want a long engine life and one that performs well in the power and fuel consumption areas you treat them with mechanical sympathy.
You may find that the engine is just not quite what it would have been ( without the severe over rev) and that its still within the bounderies of what Fiat would consider *normal*.
A hard lesson with a brand new car, hope it works out for you.

Just a further point, Less engine braking means less compression. Why not have a wet and dry compression test at a motor engineers, get the readouts and then compare with the parameters that Fiat consider acceptable for your engine?

Had the belt jumped teeth or had the cam pulley moved taking the timing out cos the 16v has not got a pulley locator machined into it. The 16v does only have one cam pulley at the belt end cos one cam drives the other one from the other end of the head using two meshed gears running in oil of you know what I mean. Im not sure what all this changing gear too quick is about- I have never heard of someone changing gear too quick and causing the cambelt to jump! if anything you would damage something in the drivetrain first unless the engine was pushed passed its working limit by changing down too many gears and over revving which in this case did not happen. Is it me or have main dealers in general not got a clue- not just Fiat I mean all makes? I was talking to a so-called technician at a major brand main dealer and basically they are just part changers and just fit a new whatever the computer says! Also what someone was saying about a mini-the a series engine uses a drive chain so in this case it is not really comparable unless it has a drive belt kit fitted which for a race engine would not be advisable.

We are going round in circles here....everyone saying shoudnt have done this, they should do that, Mine did this, I think this/that/the other etcetcetc. Dealers have seen more shagged engines than you can imagine and they know exactly what causes it to happen, they will know damn well it jumped a tooth because it was was over-revved due to a poorly timed down-change and as such have they have no liability on their behalf to make good your shortfalls. Approaching them is a waste of time, they will fob you off. They wont hand of £000`s to repair it.....The attitude, quite rightly will be why the fu** should we pay for your mistakes, although they wont say it to your face. The only realistic way you could gain some recompense is by legal action and the way I see it there are 2 options. Firstly you approach a solicitor and raise a case aginast FIAT for whatever reason the solicitor thinks best. You could try to convince the court that you were not made aware of the fact that over revving could cause damage and as such its FIAT fault for not making you aware of the dangers.......to be honest you wont win on this one, not with a redline on the tacho and clear instructions in the handbook and the fact they sell 1000s of cars in the UK each year and no-one else has had this problem. The other option and the best one is to convince the court that the engine had an inherrent fault when it left the factory. i.e a faulty tensioner. That would make FIAT liable. Courts/magistrates/judges know fu**-all about engines and your word will mean nothing to them because as far as they are concerned the dealer is the expert and not you but If you can find a reputable, highly-qualified and totally independent 3rd party i.e a Consultant Engineer prepared to examine your engine and stand up in court and dispute the dealer/FIAT by stating how and why he thinks the engine failed without putting any blame whatsoever on you, you might just stand a chance of winning the case. Now the kicker......these people dont come cheap and together with a solicitor and fees etc it will cost you a lot of money to do this, if you win the case you can claim all your costs back with damages as well as getting the car repaired/replaced, if you loose you will have to pay all FIATS costs as well as your own......and being a very big company they can afford the best, the most experienced and expensive solicitors and consultants who have done all this before. It could easily end up costing you more than the car is worth. Talk to a solicitor, or the AA/RAC, they offer free legal advice to motorists its your only realistic option. Personally I think you have no chance and you just have to accept that you fu***d up, but a phone call costs next to nothing.

sledge said:

Dealers have seen more shagged engines than you can imagine and they know exactly what causes it to happen, they will know damn well it jumped a tooth because it was was over-revved due to a poorly timed down-change.

Click to expand...

I think you will find he went from 2nd to 3rd which is an upshift.
Or are you accusing him of lying?

Some of the senior Fiat Techs are really good though.
IMHO best to be up front with them about the over rev then they know what to look for.
Re legal action, I think thats a complete non starter. The circumstances of the over rev is here on the forum in the public domain. It will also be recorded in the cars computer.
Cambelts dont slip a tooth, if the camshaft was spun fast enough in an over rev eventually the valves would *float*, by the valve springs not having enough time to pull the valves back in. They could then touch the pistons.
I think key to all of this is that the engine seems to have gone past the limiter.
Fiat could check that out and determine whether it is operator error or a faulty limiter. Then there is the issue of how new the engine is and the instructions in the handbook on load and revs with a new engine.
Its all recorded and it If I were in Jason`s situation I would be up front and honest with Fiat about the circumstances of the incident.
IMHO it needs resolving like this or it may ruin enjoyment of the car.

It sounds like a diesel.

I've thrashed mine for 65k and never had a problem like that, if it slipped a tooth the belt was'nt tight enought so they should fix it.

Take it to another dealer and get a compression test done and get them to check the timing.

To me, it sounds like the engine was over-reved, the belt skipped a couple of teeth and they didn't set the timing properly again. I've not had the head off one, but I think the new 1400 16v -- like the other fire engines -- is a "safe" engine, in which case the valves themselves should be fine. The compression test will reveal if all is OK internally, if it is, re-setting the valve timing will sort it.

16v are super fire engines, they not safe :nono:

serin said:

i bounced my car off the limiter a few times, and its given me nay troubles

the limiter is there to prevent damage, so if its managed to damage itself, Fiat has put it too high up the rev range

Click to expand...

true, i have completely ripped the arse off my rev counter on a punto mk2 and the only long term problems iv had is clutch and gear box

oilrag said:

It could be piston ring/ bore surface damage if this was a new engine that was over revved.
Compression test would find this.
Garage can test whether it bore/ring damage or valves by putting a little oil in the plug holes if compression is down.
You have to be careful with new engines despite what popular opinion may have you think.
Even then, if you want a long engine life and one that performs well in the power and fuel consumption areas you treat them with mechanical sympathy.
You may find that the engine is just not quite what it would have been ( without the severe over rev) and that its still within the bounderies of what Fiat would consider *normal*.
A hard lesson with a brand new car, hope it works out for you.

Click to expand...

Why is everone getting Jason's case like this? He will not have damaged the bores, taking the car thru the revs in a low gear is good for it specifically the bores , if it's been damaged on an upshift it is Fiats problem either get it diagnosed and fixed at another dealer or an engineers report and get it fixed pay for it and sue, PM me if u like and I will take you thru this Jason, it's very easy and not expensive and gets peoples attention. I succesfully sued Vodafone once! Yes a competant engineer will crank the engine dry and measure the compressions, then squirt some oil in, do it again and see if it gets a lot better, if it does then it's damaged rings/bores I didn't post this before coz get the right person and they will do it anyway. (You can buy a compression tester at your Autofactors, I think mine was £15 at Allparts and came with all the adaptors)The "keep the revs down" stuff is pre-war (WWII) when cars had white metal bearings and all oil was effectivley "running in oil"

Renegade_8 said:

>snip<The "keep the revs down" stuff is pre-war (WWII) when cars had white metal bearings and all oil was effectivley "running in oil"

Click to expand...

Jason is saying its a "brand new car" and there are warnings in the handbook about early use. It seems to me like "running in" but to a much lesser degree than in the past.
It also seems to me that no manufacturer uses the term "running in" for a new engine because it may put them at a commercial disadvantage.
I mean who would buy a car from a manufacturer who`s engines need *running in*.
It raises the question, what are you actually doing then if following the manufacturers advice in the handbook for new engines?
If there were no need for this why would the handbook ask the owner to restrict load and revs when brand new?
IMHO, The engines that are regularly flipped of the limiter during daily use are not going to be the engines that last longest.
Upping the revs increases the loadings and wear.
As an example just consider the loadings on the cam lobes, valve heads and seats at the redline. The extra pressure on the cam followers and lobes due to the increased rotational speed of the camshaft is enormous.
That has to mean increased wear, its just a matter of how long before it becomes noticable. ( whatever year of manufacture)

Guys, i'm not the sort of person who would intentionally damage or ruin a brand new car. I drove it perfectly before I look after things I have.

I normally drive like a, I quote "old lady" the only time I used the engines power to over-take very briefly in 2nd and then upto third things have gone wrong.

I'm not an expert on cars, I don't drive them like forumla one cars - I usually drive them with care.

I love my car, it's beautiful.

But since this it's somewhat tainted, it's very difficult for a dealer and me to grasp the siutation. I did explain to him I came off a roundabout, he himself test-drove it revved the ******** of it in second for longer than I did when I over-took!

In 1st and 2nd it's lost it's punch, when I drove the other sporting in second you get a kick (literally) of power and go, in mine it was similar to waiting for a turbo on a diesel.

Also why does it sound so much louder? When pulling away in 1st / 2nd it sounds like a diesel. I said this to him, he was like doesn't sound different to me.

Also now there's a beeping from the engine compartment, around the engine management plugs, sounds like a lever / switch flicks across every so often.

I hope you can get it sorted soon Jason.
Whats your plan?
Are you going to ask for one of the senior techs to examine it?
( Did a *senior* tech take it out for test?)
Perhaps at another Fiat dealer if you`re not having much success?
I`m surprised that the Fiat techs on this forum are not commenting more given the speculation from us all and the detailed description of how it sounds from you.
Good luck anyway.

oilrag said:

I`m surprised that the Fiat techs on this forum are not commenting more given the speculation from us all and the detailed description of how it sounds from you.

Click to expand...

Cause were all 'nursing' bad hangovers this morning Need few days to recover

T14086 said:

Cause were all 'nursing' bad hangovers this morning Need few days to recover

Click to expand...

Hello T14086, Its great that there are interested techs such as yourself who must have a pretty good idea of the state of Jasons engine.
It got me wondering actually.
About a possible bigger prescence on the forum from Fiat main dealers and Fiat UK.
If I had a business that sold a product such as a particular make of car, I would monitor a forum such as this closely. The info on what is happening with the cars would be very useful, but in particular the forum would provide an opportunity for damage limitation and good image retention, regarding both the brand name and its dealers.
All done incognito of course..... Really the question is how could they afford NOT to do this as *Brand name* regarding image is so crucial to a business.
Accordingly, It COULD be that the Fiat network is well aware of the full causal extent of Jasons problem as they have his first name and date of delivery on this forum.
PM me Fiat/Dealers I need a job
But seriously, it would be interesting to see how many IP addresses trace back to interesting sources. Not that I am suggesting it of course.

oilrag said:

It got me wondering actually.
About a possible bigger prescence on the forum from Fiat main dealers and Fiat UK.
If I had a business that sold a product such as a particular make of car, I would monitor a forum such as this closely.

Click to expand...

how do you know they dont? they dont have to be members to read, quite a lot of our members have been sent to the forum by people who work at fiat dealerships

I have no doubt there are a few garages who occasionally look on here but if any where to 'reveal' themselves they would be inundated with questions etc...end of the day its Fiat Italy that have the final say.Fiat UK & its dealer network are at the 'mercy' of Italy & can only do what they can on the information supplied to them.
I very much doubt that Fiat would be 'dictated' to by a forum,and I mean that in the nicest way before anyone comments on it.Yes the customer does have a say in what they want in future development but the customer must remember the design/production costs involved which will be fowarded onto them in terms of higher car prices which could make them less desireable to the 'market'.
As far as Jasons problem is concerned I also doubt if Fiat are aware of this thread on this forum,even if they were and responded that would put them in a awkward position if they said the wrong thing,which happens very often with the 'written' word.There arer channels to go down for Jason & the garage dealing with his car and there are also channels for Fiat UK to go down & a inspection of the car would be required (no I still haven't read whole thread through.....still on lucozade & alka-seltzer).
Another point is some people simply dont believe you & will continue arguing a point,if Fiat said something on the forum then I will guarantee you some folk will still argue black is white...etc
As for IP addresses/tracing off,well would that not be a invasion of privacy ? (moderators confirm please) I for one would retract from any further postings if this was not the case.