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Old 25-11-2006   #31
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Re: Engine shagged on brand new 1.4 16V

Not your fault if the engine has broken something. A lot of sports engine builders will put the rebuilt engine in the car fill it with running in oil run at full throttle until revs start to increase indicating the rings have seated, engine off and the running in oil and the swarf come out, new filter, whatever oil you are going to run on go in and drive away from the shop ready to race. If you had a few hundred miles on the car the bouncing off the rev limiter is a good thing to do to avoid glazed bores (which is exactly whet the above does). It may be your rev limiter is not working, that's down to Fiat.
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Old 25-11-2006   #32
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Re: Engine shagged on brand new 1.4 16V

so realy it's all down to driver error

if you let it go up to say 7000 and then panic and dump the cluch into 3rd quicly enougth you are afectively halving the engines speed in an instant but the cams want to keep going you are lucky they dident go to far and bend valves

my dad says he has seen it done to many a car

if you want to drive fast find the bite point quickly and ease out gently after that

dont just let go of it

just cos they do it in need for speed dosent mean it does you car any good
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Last edited by The Sultan; 25-11-2006 at 20:07.
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Old 25-11-2006   #33
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Re: Engine shagged on brand new 1.4 16V

I do not see this situation of cams going at a different speed to the rest of the engine, with my Mini Cooper (bored out wild cam LCB manifold etc) you could wring it out in 2nd and 3rd and snatch the next gear without using the clutch just lifting and back on the throttle with a bit of timing, resulting in very satisfactory progress! Modern sport motorcycles let you do the same thing as well at up to 14000 rpm!
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Old 26-11-2006   #34
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Re: Engine shagged on brand new 1.4 16V

Quote Originally Posted by Renegade_8
I do not see this situation of cams going at a different speed to the rest of the engine, with my Mini Cooper (bored out wild cam LCB manifold etc) you could wring it out in 2nd and 3rd and snatch the next gear without using the clutch just lifting and back on the throttle with a bit of timing, resulting in very satisfactory progress! Modern sport motorcycles let you do the same thing as well at up to 14000 rpm!
well your mini will only let you into the next gear when the reves have droped enouth hence you lifting off to let it in so it wont cause this

also motorbike gears are desighed to do this cars arent when you hit the next gear on a bike it momenterily cuts the spark just like an f1 car dose when they shift

if you let the cluch out quick enouth you cause the engine to slow down so quick the cams will jump

specialy as the fiat has timing variators on both of them alot of enurcia
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Last edited by The Sultan; 26-11-2006 at 21:37.
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Old 27-11-2006   #35
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Re: Engine shagged on brand new 1.4 16V

I'm not saying you can't make a camshaft jump a notch on a toothed belt, what I am saying is that pinging the car off the rev limiter and then catching the next gear should not hurt it. The 16v has peak power at 6000 rpm and max torque at 4500 (Fiats web site) so with a close stacked set of ratios you should be able to nail it in any gear, ping the limiter snatch the next and be at peak torque, otherwise it's hardly a "sporting" is it? Also a quick burst though the revs in a lower gear will actaully help the rings to seat, nailing it for a long time in a high gear can cause them to overheat and soften, however in the speed camera infested UK this is unlikey to happen. So if the engine is shagged after one ping off the limiter Jason should get an engineers report and then reject the car.
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Old 29-11-2006   #36
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Re: Engine shagged on brand new 1.4 16V

just cos it says sporting on it thats no excuse to let the cluch out soo quick it jumps teeth its not a formula one car

if you took any car and let it hit the limiter then let the cluch out as quick as humanly posible it will do the same

that is the only way it can hapen

i bet if he gets an engineer to have a peak it has advanced the timing on the one that has jumped ie engine slowing and cams keeping on going

it is perfectly posible to change gear fast and smove at the same time
if you know what your dooing

the only other case of this i can remember is a women driving in high heels
was going for a gear change whilst her foot sliped off ther cluch and exsactly the same thing hapened

if you down change an engine quicly enouth it will f@*k the engine
same goes for changing up to quick if you make a mistake

as i said just cos they do it in need for speed dosent mean a sporty family car can do it

if your not going to use the cluch as it was intended you might aswell have an on off swich under your foot

also their is no chance of a lose cam belt throu improper manufacture as it has a spring loaded tensioner on that engine to make sure it is set right
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Last edited by The Sultan; 29-11-2006 at 22:35.
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Old 02-12-2006   #37
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Re: Engine shagged on brand new 1.4 16V

I wouldn't have said I slammed the clutch down, I put it in as quickly as I normally would. Which isn't ramming it so hard down my feet tickle the back of the engine.

Seems to be OK now, has lost engine breaking. The man at the garage couldn't explain / work out why or how to fix it.

But I ask you this, you do 30-40mph in third drop down to second slowly properly etc and feel how much engine breaking you have.

Whatever or however, it shouldn't have happened. Also I don't rate their overall customer service skills or reponsiveness in getting something done.
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Old 02-12-2006   #38
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Re: Engine shagged on brand new 1.4 16V

Some dealers are worse than others unfortunatly . My dealer was fantastic in the sales and aftercare I knew all the staff by first name and they all new me by first name and my car reg! . Must be the amount of time I was there lol customers started asking me questions about the GP as I was always there . Just glad you got it put right thats the main thing .
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Old 02-12-2006   #39
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Re: Engine shagged on brand new 1.4 16V

No engine braking = no compression so probably shagged valves or timing still out.The black soot in your exhaust was unburnt fuel being blown through the engine without being burnt in a cylinder with all the valves closed. Go to a different dealer, or get an engineer to look at it ,someone who has a compression tester and can use it ( it is a pig to get to your spark plug holes of course, but possible, otherwise this is not a big job, I would expect 1 hour time, choose one who asks you what torque setting the plugs go back with! My Bravo Haynes gives 25NM or 18 lb/feet for the 1.4 16V). I would expect to see about 170 lbs/square foot in old money and with +/- 5 across all 4 pots. It may be your head needs to come off and your dealer does not want to help. I have pinged my 1.8 Marea off the rev limiter a few times, its redlined at 6500, these short stroke 16v engines really only get going in the last 1/4 of the rev counter, all that happens is you stop accelerating, realise the electronics has saved you from your own stupidity and change up normally. There is no need to beat yourself up over this, it will happen on the road when you are busy with other cars, lane changing looking for signs being talked at by wife/GF etc, on a track it repeats every lap so you get to know the change points on the circuit ,the other drivers and cars and can plan ahead for traffic from different classes etc on the grid so it will be on your mental map in advance.
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Old 02-12-2006   #40
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Re: Engine shagged on brand new 1.4 16V

Thank you all for the replies.

My dad said to them to make sure they test the compression.

They said they had, also had said the valves couldn't be damaged because there was enough clearning up the top also something about it only having one cam shaft wheel or something - my dad said it should have two.

He really didn't have a clue why it didn't have engine breaking, he was really arguing the toss at anything I said or my dad said.

He wasn't really interested, or seemed to care that i'd brought a brand new car that i'm going to end up paying nearly 13,000 for.

Was dissapointed with this, becuase before all this happened I loved my car.
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Old 02-12-2006   #41
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Re: Engine shagged on brand new 1.4 16V

cam belt should have been tight enough to pull the speed of the cams down to the speed of the crank. If it skipped a couple of notches then it simply wasn't tight enough.

There are enough owners on here who put it to the limiter and then take the next gear and repeat without problem. Get the compression checked and then put it to them that the car wasn't put together correct.
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Old 02-12-2006   #42
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Re: Engine shagged on brand new 1.4 16V

It could be piston ring/ bore surface damage if this was a new engine that was over revved.
Compression test would find this.
Garage can test whether it bore/ring damage or valves by putting a little oil in the plug holes if compression is down.
You have to be careful with new engines despite what popular opinion may have you think.
Even then, if you want a long engine life and one that performs well in the power and fuel consumption areas you treat them with mechanical sympathy.
You may find that the engine is just not quite what it would have been ( without the severe over rev) and that its still within the bounderies of what Fiat would consider *normal*.
A hard lesson with a brand new car, hope it works out for you.
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Old 02-12-2006   #43
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Re: Engine shagged on brand new 1.4 16V

Just a further point, Less engine braking means less compression. Why not have a wet and dry compression test at a motor engineers, get the readouts and then compare with the parameters that Fiat consider acceptable for your engine?
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Old 02-12-2006   #44
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Re: Engine shagged on brand new 1.4 16V

Had the belt jumped teeth or had the cam pulley moved taking the timing out cos the 16v has not got a pulley locator machined into it. The 16v does only have one cam pulley at the belt end cos one cam drives the other one from the other end of the head using two meshed gears running in oil of you know what I mean. Im not sure what all this changing gear too quick is about- I have never heard of someone changing gear too quick and causing the cambelt to jump! if anything you would damage something in the drivetrain first unless the engine was pushed passed its working limit by changing down too many gears and over revving which in this case did not happen. Is it me or have main dealers in general not got a clue- not just Fiat I mean all makes? I was talking to a so-called technician at a major brand main dealer and basically they are just part changers and just fit a new whatever the computer says! Also what someone was saying about a mini-the a series engine uses a drive chain so in this case it is not really comparable unless it has a drive belt kit fitted which for a race engine would not be advisable.
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Old 02-12-2006   #45
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Re: Engine shagged on brand new 1.4 16V

We are going round in circles here....everyone saying shoudnt have done this, they should do that, Mine did this, I think this/that/the other etcetcetc. Dealers have seen more shagged engines than you can imagine and they know exactly what causes it to happen, they will know damn well it jumped a tooth because it was was over-revved due to a poorly timed down-change and as such have they have no liability on their behalf to make good your shortfalls. Approaching them is a waste of time, they will fob you off. They wont hand of 000`s to repair it.....The attitude, quite rightly will be why the fu** should we pay for your mistakes, although they wont say it to your face. The only realistic way you could gain some recompense is by legal action and the way I see it there are 2 options. Firstly you approach a solicitor and raise a case aginast FIAT for whatever reason the solicitor thinks best. You could try to convince the court that you were not made aware of the fact that over revving could cause damage and as such its FIAT fault for not making you aware of the dangers.......to be honest you wont win on this one, not with a redline on the tacho and clear instructions in the handbook and the fact they sell 1000s of cars in the UK each year and no-one else has had this problem. The other option and the best one is to convince the court that the engine had an inherrent fault when it left the factory. i.e a faulty tensioner. That would make FIAT liable. Courts/magistrates/judges know fu**-all about engines and your word will mean nothing to them because as far as they are concerned the dealer is the expert and not you but If you can find a reputable, highly-qualified and totally independent 3rd party i.e a Consultant Engineer prepared to examine your engine and stand up in court and dispute the dealer/FIAT by stating how and why he thinks the engine failed without putting any blame whatsoever on you, you might just stand a chance of winning the case. Now the kicker......these people dont come cheap and together with a solicitor and fees etc it will cost you a lot of money to do this, if you win the case you can claim all your costs back with damages as well as getting the car repaired/replaced, if you loose you will have to pay all FIATS costs as well as your own......and being a very big company they can afford the best, the most experienced and expensive solicitors and consultants who have done all this before. It could easily end up costing you more than the car is worth. Talk to a solicitor, or the AA/RAC, they offer free legal advice to motorists its your only realistic option. Personally I think you have no chance and you just have to accept that you fu***d up, but a phone call costs next to nothing.
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