Hi folks,
The head gasket on the 2006 GP 1.4 8v finally collapsed, water into no 1 piston. 256k km done. Stripped the head off and sent to the local machinest who normally does the Fiat engines. We found that the head was done before elsewhere, via job number stamped on head. Reassembled the motor with new Victor Reintz gasket set, bolts, belts tentioners, etc. The guide on the forum "How to replace cam belt 1.2 8V" was srudied and used througout the exercise. The cam/crank locking tools are very expensive here, we made up own set using the dimentions as posted as part of the guide. Thanks guys, saved our day!!
We set up the locking plates, watched the videos for belt changes and confirmed as best we can that we have set up the timing correctly.
We also replaced oil and filter, new plugs, water in rad, etc. Assembled the tappet cover, coil pack and ECU in position and started engine.
Idled for 10 sec, switched off and started again, let it idle to allow oil to flow through, slight tappety noise heard. We gently raised the RPM slightly but as soos as we dropped the revs, there was a definate sound of valves touching a piston.

Back to checking rhe timing step by step, same sound again.

Now I'm at a loss.

Have arranged the machinist to come over tomorrow or Friday to give us some ideas.

My gut feel is the head is at it's limit and a new head next step.

What ideas from you experienced Fiat fundis?

Regards,
Ed

FIRE family engines are fairly noisy by design (especially when cold, sometimes the opposite, in extreme hot weather). Question is how much noisy and what kind of "noise" is that. Can you record it (you should've during first startup)?

Who did the repair? Something was done wrong, unfortunately.

Random examples (list not complete):
- exhaust manifold leak (it can produce various ticking/clapping sounds and leak affects the engine behavior/performance a lot),
- bad timing (due to camshaft DIY tool manufacturing error or misuse, VVT wheel out of idle position, valve clearances way out or belt assembly error, crankshaft pulley/cog has a cracked key - check this german YouTube video called: "Zahnriemen-Desaster! Ist der Fiat Punto noch zu retten?", 2 parts),
- bad valves (worn, bent, clearances off),
- bad pistons ("piston-slap"?), rings - seized, contaminated (during engine block cleaning),
- lubrication spoiled somehow (valve cover "o-rings" bad/missing), faulty filter,
- VVT spoiled (contaminated, damaged, out of position), actuator or solenoid valve,
- ignition and/or fuel system malfunction,
- maybe some sensors disturbed (both oxygen/lambdas, MAP, knock-sensor).

Head:
- it's just "done", especially if it was repaired twice, buy another one (head or engine),
- and two times wrong, for example some "machinists" are stupid/careless, they tend to skim more than necessary, always (and machine away "round numbers": 0,10 - 0,15 - 0,20 mm and so on - when there was for example about 0,06-0,07 mm to clean the surface), so there is/was no room for 2nd repair, it was a set-up (a trap) for the next guy (You),
- any FIRE (most of them) should do 250000 km (or more) to the first head gasket job, if it's second repair, the first one was a screw-up (99% sure), or user is crazy, abusing the car (like car was involved in accident and someone tried to drive without the coolant - things like that),
- most of the time you just want to clean the surface to remove corrosion around cooling channels, not to make the head "flat" (which can not be done by skimming one side of the 3D object - warped heads can/should be straighten - but most of time engines work in skimmed-only condition anyways),
- so machining was done twice and imagine they skimmed 0,15-0,20 each time (plus, there are geometry errors, head walls/surfaces/planes are not flat/square/parallel to each other, bearing journals not round, valve stem guides not concentric to the valve seats, etc.), it's "a lot" in total, and Fiat manuals are (if I remember right) against the skimming for some reason (compression ratio too high, pre-ignition/LSPI, knock, interference/collision).

Are there any errors stored? Scan the ECU (FES/MES + ELM327 interface/cable).
Also, you can try to inspect the pistons (via sparkplug holes) using cheap USB inspection camera/endoscope. If there was a crash (valve VS piston), it should be visible.

In the (good ?) old time we had BIG engines giving a mere 50 bhp per liter and it was quite easy to drastically improve their power output by increasing the fuel and air that it swallowed and compress it more before ignition. At the time nobody cared about emissions, global warming etc.
Nowadays, modern engine are @ 100bhp/liter or more, so they are already "tuned / customized" and there is a little left to improve them. Machining tolerances are already very tight so there is no room to play, why Fiat (and others) doesn't give any re-machining instructions anymore. You can still clean the head surface on a marble (oil and grinding powder) but certainly not machine "flatten" it ...

BRs, Bernie

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Hi,
Thanks for all the info and suggestions. I watched the German video, lots of info there!
I Haven't been able to do any work on engine other than confirm the crank/camshaft settings as per the guides, videos and discussions on the forum.

The camshaft locking tool was inserted as indicated in photos and directions in videos. Thanks for the heads up photo indicating the in timing position of the slot, relative to 0 degrees vs 180 degrees out of timing. The tool fits both ways. Also noted valves open/closed sequence when the camshaft is in the required position.
Based on the excellent info posted here, we have now decided to rather remove the cylinder head and determine if any damage was done. My gut feel is to rather source a new complete head and carry over the VVT pulley, etc. There is also the possibility of having a set of locking tools to loan from a maintenance workshop.
A few questions:
There is a slight rotational play on the VVT pulley, about 25% of a tooth width. Is this normal?
When setting the cam timing to fit the cambelt, do I need to remove the plug on the end of the pulley? Loosen the retaining bolt?
Prime the VVT with oil?
New cylinder head gasket? This is a new one fitted, engine has not run more than 10 minutes, if I recall correctly.
New Head bolts?

Thanks again GL, Bernievarian, much appreciated.

Best Regards
Ed

Hi Uncle Ed !

good decision to take the head off again, that's the very only way to be sure.

A few answers:

There is a slight rotational play on the VVT pulley, about 25% of a tooth width. Is this normal?
I'd say any play in the timing stuff is not good, but since it's always the crank that pulls the cam, this play should no worry you that much, how many degrees (minutes) is 25% of a tooth (360/n/4) where n is the number of teeth ?

When setting the cam timing to fit the cambelt, do I need to remove the plug on the end of the pulley? Loosen the retaining bolt?
You should not remove it, just loose.

Prime the VVT with oil?
The VVT should be full of oil already, as the valve is locking it inside.

New cylinder head gasket?
Definitely YES, even if the engine did not ran, the gasket has been pressed and can't be re-used.

New Head bolts?
Not sure here if Fiat recommends to use new ones, but it wouldn't surprise me: similarly as the gasket, the bolts has been stretched so they might not respond the same way anymore to the tightening torque ...

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)

Hi Bernie,
Thanks for your advice, will fit a new gasket and source new bolts. In another discussion, I saw the cam pulley had some play, will see what happens.
Anyway, we are going for a new cylinder head, safest option.
I haven't been able to do much besides rechecking the settings, no problems there.
So, started removing the ECU, exhaust manifold and all the various electrical plugs, sensors, etc.. We are having limited power supply, and it's raining, so not much gets done. Hopefully I can remove the head byThursday.
How do I identify a 1.4 8v cylinder head, vs a 1.2?? Will try to source a completely assembled head.

Best regards,

Ed.

Uncle Ed said:

How do I identify a 1.4 8v cylinder head, vs a 1.2??

Ed.

Click to expand...

The bore Ø is slightly bigger on the 1.4 ...

BRs, Bernie

Thank you, Bernie.

Best regards,

Ed

Good morning,
We removed the head, found 2 exhaust valves had slight markings on face. Dressed the valve recesses in the piston crowns with a small Dremil bit.
Opened the VVT pulley, cleaned the various parts, reassembled. Refitted the head, assembled everything and started the engine.
All OK! Running smoothly, water temp up to normal, no abnormal dash lights and no strange noises anymore.
Car much more responsive than before, cooling fan runs much less in traffic.
Thanks to all the advice on this forum, much appreciated.

Regards,
Ed

Cool.
Any photos?
Especially VVT wheel internals, guts. Plus those markings (valve hit/collision) on the pistons.

Hi Uncle Ed,

thans for the update, job well done !

- Have you still used the 'old' head ?
- How much have you ported the piston's valve recesses ?
- I guess you did all four pistons (for compression balance) ?

Cheers, Bernie.

Hi Bernie,
Sorry for late reply!
Still used the old head, the valve recesses cleaned up mostly pit marks. I must admit my BIL, who knows his way around things mechanical and is a brilliant Metalurgical Engineer by profession, pointed out some faint marks on the exhaust valves of pistons 2 and 3. He deftly applied a small dremil tool to all the valve recesses, measured before and after depths with a vernier, cleaned the pistons of some minute swarf debris and completed the engine assembly.
We opened the cam pulley, cleaned out some accumulated gunk in the corners and refitted the clock spring, what a job! Anyway, oiled up the cam and the pulley, refitted tappet cover and assembled all the rest of the engine. Tense moment when the engine fired up...no more noises from motor!
We have added about 300km since then, engine is much more responsive, water temp rises normally in town and no need to top up the rad anymore. We think the VVT pulley was not responding as it should.

Once more thanks to all.

Be blessed,
Ed

Hi GP,
Sorry, no photos, much to my own disappointment! But I can tell you that cam sprocket cleaning task was not a walk in the park. There was a definate forward backward play before removing it from the shaft. Once opened up, we found that there was some gunge caught up in the corners, needed to be removed with a sharp tool. The clock spring refitting was very difficult, needed a lot of muscle power to fit it properly but once assembled and fitted, no play was noted.

Regards and blessings
Ed