Hi folks,
Need to replace the water pump on our 2006 GP 1.4 8V with aircon.
I don't have access to the locking plates, etc. so will need to make up as I go along.
I have access to the eLearn procedure, that's with purpose made tools.

The timing belt was replaced 50K Km ago.

How do I go about keeping the timing in position without the purpose made tools?
Are there any markings that I need to be aware of?
Do I need to remove the tappet cover?
Is it doable without the tools?

Car has done 254000Km, without major engine issues.

Bit of history:
The car is my wife's, having been attended to by her son in law in the past. I took over maintenance at about 200 000Km, only to find out the timing belt, etc, may not have been replaced on schedule.
What upsets me is the fact that when I had the Agent replace the timing belt at 205 000Km, they did not offer to replace the water pump or inform me that it can be done while the belt was being replaced, even though I asked them what else can be done whilst they had access. Considering the high Kilometers done, they could have.......

Due to the cooling fan cutting in regularly in town, the thermostat / housing was replaced a while ago. There was some improvement but it was recommended that we replace the water pump.

That's the situation at present.


Ed

Uncle Ed said:

Due to the cooling fan cutting in regularly in town, the thermostat / housing was replaced a while ago. There was some improvement but it was recommended that we replace the water pump.

That's the situation at present.


Ed

Click to expand...

Hi Uncle Ed,

IMO there is no relationship with this issue and the water pump ! It's bad that they did not suggest to replace it while doing the belt job, but hey it's not the end of the word either. A water pump is just an impeler on a shaft, with a pulley, a bearing and a seal, gues what goes wrong with it, and is pretty fast to replace. BTW it's common practice to replace the belt when doing the WP job ... Has the thermostat replacemnt cured you fan getting on issue (which is normal behavior) ?
Regarding the belt you can still do it the "standard" way by marking the pulleys and the block: though doing so would keep the engine timed AS IT CURRENTLY IS, which might be a bit off ... Check the engine for any (factory) marks and remember the cam shaft rotates 1/2 turn for 1 crankshaft full rotation so the mark could be 180° off.

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)

Hi Bernie,
Thanks for the info, much appreciated.

The thermostat replacement helped with temp control, temp gauge up to halfway mark and stays there. Tested old thermostat in pot of water on the stove, wife not impressed! Oh, was very little movement on the bellows, scrapped it. The fan still cuts in driving in town, a quick blip on the pedal and it soon cuts out. This gives me the idea that water flow may not be that good.
Also, another issue is the temp gauge rises very fast until thermostat opens, then stable. The fast rise worries me.
My reasoning is that the flow may not be optimal, so I bought a new water pump yesterday and now busy stripping the covers, etc to fit the pump. Hence the questions in my previous post. I will work very carefully not to disturb the cam, etc.

Beginning of our winter, I suspected a possible blown head gasket. Gas Test pointed in that direction. Due to moving into new premises, I didn't get to head gasket repairs.
As an interim measure, I flushed the water system a few times, new antifreeze added. I also cleaned the blocked heater matrix, now working. Also, the water consumption dropped and now holds it's level in the plastic header tank. Will see what it does during our summer. And it's very hot here, temps running in the 30's, 40's, very dry here. Having a very severe drought, been going on for a few years, very sad seeing livestock dying of hunger and thirst. Many farmers have lost everything. Thankfully, some parts of the country have recently received much needed rain though vast areas are still dry.

Thanks once again, Bernie.

Nice to see here people around the world South Africa, UK, Slovakia, Poland...

Hello Uncle Ed. I was very interested in this exact situation - namely, can you accurately change the belt without the locking tools - So I bought a set of locking tools and used them to check whether the outcome of doing it the "tippex" way was accurate. In fact I did the belts on both our own 2010 1.2 8valve Panda and my boy's 2012 1.4 8valve Punto. Try typing "Becky's timing belt" into the search bar to read my account. There are several treads (it developed into a bit of a sags) most of the timing belt investigations are under the entry "The ongoing saga". I completely concur with Bernie's opinion. Yes you can do it by marking up the pulleys but because the cam pulley (sprocket some would call it) is not keyed to the camshaft itself then you are going to end up with the settings you had when you started. By that I mean that if whoever did the last belt failed to set up the timing correctly it will be the same after you've finished. The only way to be really sure it's spot on is to use the timing tools. However if it's the first belt change since new then you can be pretty sure the factory will have done it correctly so it's worth taking the chance. However it sounds like this is not your engine's first belt change so it will all depend on how precise the fitter who did the last belt was.

By the way, when did they stop "keying" the cam sprocket? I know both our Panda and the boy's Punto have "free" cam sprockets. I also know the old 1992 Panda Parade we used to have had a keyed sprocket (so it would only go on in the one position. Do all 8 valve GPs and newer Pandas have "free" cam sprockets?

Good luck with your endeavours - hope it all goes well for you. Do keep us informed as to progress won't you.

Kind regards
Jock

A wee PS. You may find after fitting the new belt, especially if you have to slacken and re-position the cam sprocket, that your check engine light will start flashing. Others on this forum have reported that scanning for trouble codes often reveals DTCs related to miss fires. However this can be a bit of a red herring as the underlying problem is that the phasing of cam and crank sensors will have been upset by the variation in sprocket position. The ECU doesn't know that you've caused this by re-positioning the cam pulley and tries to make sense of it by posting the miss fire codes. In fact what is needed to extinguish the light is a "Phonic Wheel relearn". If you do the belt change and don't get the light coming on (usually after a run on open roads) then you can assume the ECU is happy. If however the light comes on (usually flashing I believe) then the relearn is needed. My local main agent tells me they automatically do it every time whereas the local indy tells me they only do it if the light comes on. You will need either the dealer computer tool itself or Multiecuscan to do this reset - although some say they've extinguished it by doing the reset procedure of revving the engine to between 5,000 and 6,000 rpm 3 times (no need to hold the high revs) then, when the engine resumes idle, switch off, wait "a wee while" and on switching back on the light has gone out. Maybe worth a try, but I'd prefer to use the proper computer tool to be sure it was properly done.

As far as I know this is something which only affects the 8 valve engines? But perhaps some one with wider knowledge (I'm really only into the Pandas and Puntos), like Bernie, might know differently?

Hey Uncle Ed

I agree with Berne and Pudd, two very knowledgeable people on the forum. I recently changed my timing belt on a 1.4 tjet GP. (Search: Timing Belt too loose or too tight). My skill level is at about mid level and I'm glad I bought the timing tools. As it did seem that my previous timing wasn't perfect but good enough. So if u can u would look to invest just because if anything feels funny afterwards you know for sure it isn't the timing etc and no paranoia can set in. I went through it all with mine so feel free to message me with anything u may want to pick a brain of. As I felt I was becoming annoying with all the questions but I'm flying the flag for helping ppl do their water pumps / timing belt.

Good afternoon, folks

Thanks all for the very good advice posted! Must admit, somehow my sluggish grey matter was rudely told to get a move on, some of the pointers received, rekindled forgotten do's and dont's of the trade!

The cam belt was replaced recently by Fiat agents, thus I accepted they used the locking tools and the timing, etc, should be correct.

I could not lay my hands on a set of locking tools, so reverted to careful marking of the cam and crank pulleys. After removing the top and bottom covers, I turned the crank pulley by means of a socket and ratchet until I had the v notch facing 12 o,clock. Removed No1 plug, checked the piston was at top of stroke, done by inserting a long piece of welding wire into plug hole.
I used a white paint pen to mark the pulleys at 12 o'clock, also used a sharp pin punch to mark two adjacent teeth on the cam gear pulley, also 12 o'clock. directly in line with the punch marks, I made similar marks on the tappet cover casing.
I then carefully loosened the tensioner lock nut, this took the strain off the belt. The cam pulley moved ever so slightly but remained very close to the paint marks. Then carefully slipped the belt off the top gear and continued removal of the pump. The pump had the narrow vanes, replacement pump wider vanes, the idea being that water would be circulated more efficiently in our hot climate. Cleaned off the casing face, applied some sealer and bolted the pump in place.
Again, carefully slipped belt beck over cam pulley, used an angled circlip pliers to move the tensioner against the belt, kept an eye on the marks and nipped up the nut on the tensioner. Did the two turns of the cam pulley and... the cambelt went slack! checked and found it had rode on the bottom crank teeth. Checked the pulley marks all ok and redid the tensioner locknut exercise.
Turned the crank with ratchet a few times, all OK!!
Replaced all the covers, engine mounting, etc. Refitted bottom hose , added antifreeze and water, crossed fingers, started engine and let it idle about 10 seconds, switched off and checked all still in order.
Started engine, bled the coolant via the plastic bleeder on top of the radiator. Not a pleasant job, that plastic whatever is a pain....

After quick warm-up, drove a couple kilometres in traffic, found engine temp up to half mark quick, and.. the fan only cut in a few times in heavy traffic, not as often as before.
Back home, had a good look at the aircon radiator, saw the fins were badly flattened. Then I realised, this was caused by overzealous application of pressure washer by operator at the washbay. Mad...Mad.

Found there were 4 bolts on the ally engine mounting, not 3 as per eLearn!!

Once again, thanks for all the input from you folks up North, gave me confidence to tackle this task!!

Be blessed.

Ed

Hi Ed!
Do you know that when the engine is running and the AC is on, the cooling fan must be running at low speed all the time, using a resistor located at the top of the fan frame just below the expansion tank, mine was corroded and the over-temperature fuse had blown.
Btw, in cold and hot areas, the alternator must be at 105A not the normal 75A.
BRs. Kjeld

Thanks, was aware the fan came on with aircon on. Will do thorough check . Don't recall a higher speed comimg on. Oh wait, this happened on one occation when temps were in high 40's.
Was in town this morning, heavy traffic, high temp outside. The car behaved very well, the temp gauge needle rose slower than before, reached normal level and stayed there, fan cut in once, stopped when traffic started flowing. The new pump with longer blades is definately an improvement, even though it cost almost double that of the short blade pump.
Also, car feels more responsive, maybe the self check phase did it!

Will check the altenator. It failed a while back, very scary, no stearing and darkness setting in!

Thanks for your inputt, much appreciated.

Be blessed.
Ed

kjeldio said:

Hi Ed!
Do you know that when the engine is running and the AC is on, the cooling fan must be running at low speed all the time, using a resistor located at the top of the fan frame just below the expansion tank, mine was corroded and the over-temperature fuse had blown.
Btw, in cold and hot areas, the alternator must be at 105A not the normal 75A.
BRs. Kjeld

Click to expand...

Hi Kjeld,
Dankie vir jou bydrae, aangenaam van jou!

Groetnis,
Ed

Hej Ed
Jeg er ked af at jeg ikke forstår afrikaans jeg måtte bruge google-translate.
Mvh. Kjeld

Ps. det ser ud til at dit kølings system nu virker som det skal.
Pps. Med hensyn til generatoren, det har jeg prøvet, det kan godt være farligt hvis det sker midt i et sving. Jeg fik en helt ny Denso/Marelli 105A fra AutoDoc til ca. 750 dkr.

To those who don't understand danish here is a google-translate.

Hi Ed
I'm sorry I don't understand afrikaans I had to use google translate.
Sincerely. Kjeld

Ps. your cooling system now seems to be working properly.
Pps. As for the generator I have tried, it can be dangerous if it happens in the middle of a turn. I got a brand new Denso / Marelli 105A from AutoDoc for approx. 750 dkr.

kjeldio said:

To those who don't understand danish here is a google-translate.

Hi Ed
I'm sorry I don't understand afrikaans I had to use google translate.
Sincerely. Kjeld

Ps. your cooling system now seems to be working properly.
Pps. As for the generator I have tried, it can be dangerous if it happens in the middle of a turn. I got a brand new Denso / Marelli 105A from AutoDoc for approx. 750 dkr.

Click to expand...

Hi Kjeld,
Google can cross oceans!!!
Keep well


Best regards,
Ed