Bolt that fell out looks fine to me. I have attached a photo.

I went into the Halfords auto centre and spoke with them. They said they will look at it and see if it was their error in terms of any parts they fitted failing....not sure if any of the parts they fitted would cause any collapse in the suspension or other to make force the nuts off the bolts?

Bernievarian said:

Pretty sure they forgot to put the nuts back !

The suspension geometry is such that it tend to "sit" the wheel-hub in, due to car's weight pushing between the two resting points (the tyres). When you pulled-up the driveway, it was most probably by turning right, possibly a bit quicker than usual, then the lateral force applied and the mass transfer MAY have overpassed the "sit-in" force so the link opened ...
Does that make senses ?

Click to expand...

Yes and no.

The bolt was found ~200 yards back up the road.

I do turn right into my driveway, almost full lock.

The bolt must have fallen out maybe 5 seconds before I turned into my driveway and as I've turned the wheel has slipped and I was like - 'that didn't feel right' - so pulled out of the turn into my driveway and carried on down the road, stopped and tried to work out what had happend.

The wheel had obviously titled as I turned into the driveway and caused me to slide a little and therefore pull out of the turn.

I am not an expert, but I am open to the idea that the bolts weren't even screwed back on at all and the weight of the car pushing down on the bolts etc had been keeping them in place.

My feeling is they either didn't screw the nuts on properly or didn't put them back on at all.

I spoke to the manager and he was saying it sounds like something in the suspension has failed, but I don't see how the suspension fails and therefore rips 2 nuts clean off causing no damage to the bolts....with no nuts to be seen on the road, just the bolt. The moment the bolt came out was at low speed, about 10mph, which makes it even harder to believe that something in the suspension failed and ripped the nuts clean off.

I was speaking to the assistant manager and explaining that I believe it's highly likely the nuts weren't screwed on properly. I don't think I said this to the manage when he came down....so it possibly didn't cross his mind.

If you take a look at the 'guide' I posted earlier in this thread you will see that the two bolts have to be removed to replace the top mount/strut.

I would suggest that the bolts/nuts have not been torqued to the required setting,nor has any form of thread lock been used.

Do the bolts show any sign of having a nut on them?..ie is the end of the thread clean or rusty?

Are Halfords willing to pay for transportation to them or accept the evidence of pictures?..

Are you in any service like AA or RAC?..maybe ask them for a report as supportive evidence.....

nikrox said:

If you take a look at the 'guide' I posted earlier in this thread you will see that the two bolts have to be removed to replace the top mount/strut.

I would suggest that the bolts/nuts have not been torqued to the required setting,nor has any form of thread lock been used.

Do the bolts show any sign of having a nut on them?..ie is the end of the thread clean or rusty?

Are Halfords willing to pay for transportation to them or accept the evidence of pictures?..

Are you in any service like AA or RAC?..maybe ask them for a report as supportive evidence.....

Click to expand...

Cheers for your help Nikrox.

Halfords have phoned me and told me they fixed it all.

They found no issues with any parts....so this does suggest they didn't tighten the nuts properly, or even put them back in place, like yourself, I, and many others here came to the conclusion of.

Seems they have played the whole thing very sensibly. Fixing it, but not admitting to anything.

All they said was that they didn't know what had happend, why there were no nuts on the bolts and no nuts were found on the road. They mentioned that there were some metal filings like something had been rubbing against something...

Not sure if this is some minor excuse as if to say 'something else may have been to blame, not us'...

but how would something rubbing against the nuts cause BOTH nuts to loosen + if this was the case then surely they would see a worn part of my vehicle that was the culprit for this. The fact that both nuts are small and in different places, for them both to be rubbing against something and unscrew seems like madness....

Just an excuse to try to take the blame away from themselves it seems.

Anyhow. I will pick up my car and find another garage to use in future. They have lost my custom, that's for sure.

The nuts should have Nylon inserts..

So whoever refitted could not just spin them up 'finger.tight'...

As they would be nowhere near the strut.. and obviously in need of proper torqueing.

At least it is all back together for you


Charlie

varesecrazy said:

The nuts should have Nylon inserts..

So whoever refitted could not just spin them up 'finger.tight'...

Click to expand...

Yeah, seems they didn't put the nuts on or didn't screw them tight enough when they last worked on my car.

They have told me that they have now fitted 'hub nuts'. Not sure if this is a standard nut, or some extra fancy nut, I am not a nut expert.

I would assume they'd be aware that my gear box has badly leaked oil?

As the drive shaft has been pulled out would this be the cause of the oil leak and the oil be coming out of the hole where the drive shaft goes in? so they will know the oil needed topping up? Even if not...they should probably have seen trails of oil and smelt it and noticed there had been a leak.

It's just they didn't mention that they topped up the oil when they phoned me.

Do you guys think they would have topped it up as it would be obvious or should I phone up to make sure?

Personally I would phone them and advise them of the extensive gearbox oil leak and question it it has been refilled/changed. You could suggest that should the gearbox goes bang that you will be back with a solicitors letter etc..
Also question if the flexi brake line has been replaced,or at the least checked for damage etc.

Spell out exactly what your expectations of any remedial work is..They have,to all intents and purposes admitted liability.

Ask for a written,dated and manager signed report of any, and all work carried out.

nikrox said:

Personally I would phone them and advise them of the extensive gearbox oil leak and question it it has been refilled/changed. You could suggest that should the gearbox goes bang that you will be back with a solicitors letter etc..
Also question if the flexi brake line has been replaced,or at the least checked for damage etc.

Spell out exactly what your expectations of any remedial work is..They have,to all intents and purposes admitted liability.

Ask for a written,dated and manager signed report of any, and all work carried out.

Click to expand...

Cheers, great info, thanks.

Here are some more images of the bolt I found in the road. Not sure if anyone can gauge anything from these images. One thing to note is that the splines (horizontal grooves) on the bolt have pretty much been smoothed down to a flat surface, there is only a faint feel of grooves when I run my fingers over them.

By splines.. I think you mean the actual thread.

That is seriously damaged.. however.. biggest thing to me:

You can see a shiny.. almost polished.. area under the head of the bolt.. where it has been spinning free (due to the slack nut)

The thread damge is AFTER the nut has gone.. and the bolt has wriggled half.way out through the suspension.. and the movement between suspension and hub has essentially hammered the thread down.


The look of the bolt says it is the original factory bolt.. certainly been on the car for YEARS rather than months.

This serves as a warning to keep an eye on the cars working parts

varesecrazy said:

By splines.. I think you mean the actual thread.

That is seriously damaged.. however.. biggest thing to me:

You can see a shiny.. almost polished.. area under the head of the bolt.. where it has been spinning free (due to the slack nut)

The thread damge is AFTER the nut has gone.. and the bolt has wriggled half.way out through the suspension.. and the movement between suspension and hub has essentially hammered the thread down.


The look of the bolt says it is the original factory bolt.. certainly been on the car for YEARS rather than months.

This serves as a warning to keep an eye on the cars working parts

Click to expand...

Do you think these bolts could have been worn at the time the suspension was done and the wheels taken off?....

if these bolts / nuts were knackered when that work was done then surely the garage should be informing me and replacing them, not reattaching a wheel with old, knackered, thread-bare bolts?

I can't be taking wheels off and expecting nuts myself. I'll end up killing myself. I'd jack up the car, slide underneath and the jack will slip out and crush me as I am a noob.

I have looked at photos of new bolts and they do have 'sharp' threads, whereas this old bolt of mine is flat smooth. If I grabbed a new bolt and put pressure down on the bolts thread it would probably hurt and if i slid my finger across it hard and with force it would probably cut my skin open? there is no chance of this old bolt doing any damage, the threads are as smooth as a babies butt.

I might head to a garage which is 500 yards from my house an ask them what they think of the bolt and what they think may have happend. Get them to inspect my car for me and check the other bolts attaching the right side wheel, also.


EDIT: I have seen other images where the thread is smooth on new bolts, some have sharp threads, some don't. So I am not sure there is anything wrong with the bolt other than grooves under the bolt head being smoothed down almost to a completely smooth surface. The grooves I am talking about are not the main thread where the nut gets screwed onto. I am talking about the grooves that should run down the shaft of the bolt, under the bolt head. I assume these grooves are supposed to act as added grip within the slit where the bolt sits.

Gotta admit to being confused..The bolts I thought we were talking about were the ones that held the wheel hub etc to the suspension leg.Two bolts.
The ones,in your picture, appear to show evidence of being effectively worn through the action of a chattering type motion as the weight of the car is effectively on and off the bolts and it/they works its way out of the hole

I’m certain the nuts never made it back onto the bolts, as eluded to it is clear that the bolts have been happily rotating, this could only happen if they where able too. I think the nuts where never put back as even with my obsession with copper slip those particular ones don’t undo, or do up with out consistent force, certainly no finger spinning. I don’t think they are nylok on mine but they are an all metal equivalent the term for which I do not know but I’m sure there is one.

I know this won’t suit most but the only thing I use my torque wrench for is wheel tightening, this is because I don’t want them too tight, in addition to... the not fall off argument, those and head bolts, everything else for the last 50 years by feel, I’m not saying it’s right, just honest. The only thing that’s ever been an issue was an axle bolt on an RD125....


And that’s because I never put the nut on!!!!

nikrox said:

Gotta admit to being confused..The bolts I thought we were talking about were the ones that held the wheel hub etc to the suspension leg.Two bolts.
The ones,in your picture, appear to show evidence of being effectively worn through the action of a chattering type motion as the weight of the car is effectively on and off the bolts and it/they works its way out of the hole

Click to expand...

Yes, 2 bolts that hold the wheel hub to the suspension leg. The photos are of the same bolt. The bolt that ended up on the road.

I think I'll take the bolt to a local garage and see if they see any evidence of anything. I will also get them to check my car over once I get it back from Halfords.

Just a photo to show the other bolt still snug inside with dirt build up around it which indicates that this bolt is pretty secure even without the nut. If it had been moving around there wouldn't be a build up of dirt around the bolt head.

The hole where the other bolt that fell out would have sat shows a shiny surface on the outer part possibly indicating that the bolt was rotating and therefore rubbing against this surface causing it to be so shiny.

Normal wear to the edges of this hole?

Yes, that's normal wear. But, how many pages this topic will be? Ten, twenty?
They've never put nutz back. That's it. Topic closed. Nothing to "investigate" here.

Weight of the car is pushing on those bolts, so depending on road conditions (how many bumps and turns you make), you could drive it for years.

Lesson for you and others too: check your car from time to time. As a basic check, maintenance. Bend over, get down on your f knees and look under the car, if everything's on place, no fluids dripping and so on. That's your "job" as a car owner.

Eight months, and you haven't looked at the wheels (and what's behind)? Do you check your tyre pressures?
Were there any signs, strange "clunking" noises from the suspension? I bet there was something. Or car pulling to one side ever so slightly?

Verdict: it's 95% mechanics fault and 5% yours (you don't care, you just put the fuel and drive the car, that's it).

Here's my take on this.

Your'e lucky that you were not killed, or anyone else for that matter.


Whether or not the nuts were refitted is debatable in my opinion.
8 months is a long time for a bolt to fall out had the nuts not been refitted.
A few hundred yards would probably be enough for the bolt to work loose.
Had the nuts not been replaced, I feel that you'd have had this issue 7 and half months ago.

For both nuts to come off is highly unlilkely and extremely unlucky.

So in my opinion, the nuts were not done up to the correct torque, and have over time, unscrewed themselves.
I'm trying to visualise these nuts and I'm pretty sure that these are flanged nuts, without nyloc inserts, so would in all probability vibrate loose if not done up correctly.



GrandePunto PL has a point about the car owner having some responsibility to the road worthyness of his vehicle, however, if I employ the services of a professional to do the work for me, I expect it to be done to a standard, and I don't expect that I should have to crawl under my car to check that the work was done correctly.

GrandePunto PL said:

Yes, that's normal wear. But, how many pages this topic will be? Ten, twenty?
They've never put nutz back. That's it. Topic closed. Nothing to "investigate" here.

Weight of the car is pushing on those bolts, so depending on road conditions (how many bumps and turns you make), you could drive it for years.

Lesson for you and others too: check your car from time to time. As a basic check, maintenance. Bend over, get down on your f knees and look under the car, if everything's on place, no fluids dripping and so on. That's your "job" as a car owner.

Eight months, and you haven't looked at the wheels (and what's behind)? Do you check your tyre pressures?
Were there any signs, strange "clunking" noises from the suspension? I bet there was something. Or car pulling to one side ever so slightly?

Verdict: it's 95% mechanics fault and 5% yours (you don't care, you just put the fuel and drive the car, that's it).

Click to expand...

Deep apologies. I will try to end this thread in a couple more posts maximum. Though, as you asked a question I will respond.

No, there were no clunking noises, no noticeable issues at all before this happend. And in some of the photos I have posted I have noted that the bolt that remained inside of its slot looks pretty snug in there, there is even dirt build up around the circumference of the bolt head which indicates the bolt hasn't been moving at all and is very secure inside. The other bolt was probably snug for a while and eventually slipped out.

I would hazard a guess that there were never any nuts placed on these bolts, hence no rattling. Once the top bolt came loose from its slot it would have fallen out pretty much instantly.

I was just after a significant piece of evidence that would pretty much nail this on the head that they didn't put the nuts on, or didn't screw them on properly. I am down £150 for getting a recovery vehicle to pick my car up and I was questioning whether to request/demand they cover this cost as right now I can't have 100% conviction it's their error.

I will go and speak to another local garage and get their opinion. I need to speak with them anyway as I'd like them to give the all clear on the work Halford have done and check the bolts on the other side.

I understand I have a responsibility to check my vehicle, but I am not sure I am legally supposed to check specific things like nuts and bolts of the wheel/suspension arm. I am legally required to have an MOT which obviously is a safety check, which ironically led to my vehicle being unsafe as it ended up with 2 important nuts not being secured properly.

If this accident had happend at higher speed and I veered off the road and someone died, would I be culpable?

An MOT centre, a garage should not be sending unsafe vehicles out again. Anyone sending their vehicle for an MOT should expect it to be road legal when they get it back. That's the whole point in it.

All the vehicle checks I have googled about that is expected of car owners talk about 10 basic checks. Feel free to link me to a website which shows all the checks us car owners are required to do. I would be interested into how much detail we have to go to.

Halfords have admitted liability by doing the work,for free.

I,personally would write to them,recorded,or email,keeping a copy explaining your expenses etc and ask for reimbursement of any,and all costs.

Verbal converstions can be denied where letters/emails leave an 'evidence' trail..

Have you got the car back?...