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Old 07-11-2019   #106
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Re: Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

I did like point 5 too ! (not that I disliked the others...).

Rewarding yourself, should it be by a cup of tea, a cigar or a rough-cider pint, is essential !
Making a break and closely inspect things/work your brain will most of the time bring you the solution. Had it yesterday trying to open a connector on my Scirocco: it ended up I just had to gently lift a (very small) plastic tab and the shield would slide off nicely...

On the other side you sometimes have to use the persuasive tooling, like prybar, sledge hammer etc. but before going that way try to have confirmation from more experienced people !

Job well done Emerson !!

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)
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Old 2 Days Ago   #107
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Re: Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

I'm installing a new timing belt and having some trouble getting the timing perfect... I'm having similar problems that @everson38 did back last year, so going to post here rather than make a new thread.

My engine is the 1.4 16V, and I am using the special locking tools. The problem I'm having is everything seems "in time" up until I put the new belt on, tension it, then rotate the crank twice. After that, things are slightly out - the camshaft locking tool doesn't fit as the timing hole hasn't fully lined up with the window..

I think the problem is my understanding of the process for the camshaft pulley. I loosen it to fit the belt, then tighten it up to 120Nm. Then proceed to tension the tensioner to the max, rotate the engine twice, loosen the tensioner and get the notches lined up, then rotate engine again. It seems no matter what tension I set, things aren't lining up.

Getting the tensioner perfect isn't something I've been able to do. I get the two notches lined up and do the nut up hand tight, then torque it to 25Nm, but then the notches have moved... Do I need to tighten the nut to 25Nm all whilst holding the tension in the right place, using the fork? Basically hold it in the perfect place with one hand, and torque with the other?

I've gone through the process a few times and arriving at the same result. Basically, the pistons aren't quite level when the camshaft timing hole comes into view, it seems to be about half a turn out
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Last edited by oldmanhouse; 2 Days Ago at 22:30.
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Old 2 Days Ago   #108
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Quote Originally Posted by oldmanhouse View Post
I'm installing a new timing belt and having some trouble getting the timing perfect... I'm having similar problems that @everson38 did back last year, so going to post here rather than make a new thread.

Hey Pal, sorry to hear your having issues, but reading my key points previous, just take a break and call it a day, watch someore videos etc . In regards to your tensioning process, the steps are correct. I had the same issue though, when it cam to steps of loosening the tensioner to line up the notches and then re-tighten, I found the final tightening always moved. You have to hold it with the fork and get it as tight as you can, I found using my 1/4" torque wrench was just too big for.me.to tighten one way and hold with the fork the other. If u try tighten with a 13mm.wrench I found I was able to tighten but also see the notches before they started to move. They will move if you just try to tighten it down with a torque wrench, u can only the tighten so much before they shift. So go as far as you can before that happens and then rotate the engine twice , I did it about 4 times and then put locking tools in to ensure all.timed up

My engine is the 1.4 16V, and I am using the special locking tools. The problem I'm having is everything seems "in time" up until I put the new belt on, tension it, then rotate the crank twice. After that, things are slightly out - the camshaft locking tool doesn't fit as the timing hole hasn't fully lined up with the window..

I think the problem is my understanding of the process for the camshaft pulley. I loosen it to fit the belt, then tighten it up to 120Nm. Then proceed to tension the tensioner to the max, rotate the engine twice, loosen the tensioner and get the notches lined up, then rotate engine again. It seems no matter what tension I set, things aren't lining up.

Getting the tensioner perfect isn't something I've been able to do. I get the two notches lined up and do the nut up hand tight, then torque it to 25Nm, but then the notches have moved... Do I need to tighten the nut to 25Nm all whilst holding the tension in the right place, using the fork? Basically hold it in the perfect place with one hand, and torque with the other?

I've gone through the process a few times and arriving at the same result. Basically, the pistons aren't quite level when the camshaft timing hole comes into view, it seems to be about half a turn out
Hey Pal, sorry to hear your having issues, but reading my key points previous, just take a break and call it a day, watch someore videos etc . In regards to your tensioning process, the steps are correct. I had the same issue though, when it cam to steps of loosening the tensioner to line up the notches and then re-tighten, I found the final tightening always moved. You have to hold it with the fork and get it as tight as you can, I found using my 1/4" torque wrench was just too big for.me.to tighten one way and hold with the fork the other. If u try tighten with a 13mm.wrench I found I was able to tighten but also see the notches before they started to move. They will move if you just try to tighten it down with a torque wrench, u can only the tighten so much before they shift. So go as far as you can before that happens and then rotate the engine twice , I did it about 4 times and then put locking tools in to ensure all.timed up
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Old 1 Day Ago   #109
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Re: Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

Quote Originally Posted by everson38 View Post
Hey Pal, sorry to hear your having issues, but reading my key points previous, just take a break and call it a day, watch someore videos etc . In regards to your tensioning process, the steps are correct. I had the same issue though, when it cam to steps of loosening the tensioner to line up the notches and then re-tighten, I found the final tightening always moved. You have to hold it with the fork and get it as tight as you can, I found using my 1/4" torque wrench was just too big for.me.to tighten one way and hold with the fork the other. If u try tighten with a 13mm.wrench I found I was able to tighten but also see the notches before they started to move. They will move if you just try to tighten it down with a torque wrench, u can only the tighten so much before they shift. So go as far as you can before that happens and then rotate the engine twice , I did it about 4 times and then put locking tools in to ensure all.timed up
thanks @everson38, had a break now back on the tools. Didn't get very far though as the little tensioner fork tool has broken! Circlip pliers are the next best thing i have access to, although they are nowhere near strong enough to hold the tension - the heads keep slipping out! might have to order a new fork tool
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Old 1 Day Ago   #110
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Quote Originally Posted by oldmanhouse View Post
thanks @everson38, had a break now back on the tools. Didn't get very far though as the little tensioner fork tool has broken! Circlip pliers are the next best thing i have access to, although they are nowhere near strong enough to hold the tension - the heads keep slipping out! might have to order a new fork tool
Yep the same happened to me, my fork prong bent, bit it shows how hard we must of been trying to tigthen. After that I was still able to use it but had to hold it a certain angle. Yes I would order a new one for sure. But try to just align the notches and then they tighten with a wrench as much as it can just before the notches start to.love again, I had to do this a few times just to get a feel of when I knew how much tension it will take before the notches start to move. My car was all n the air for about a week doing 6 hours a day on this, so don't worry, I believe if O can do it, honestly anyone can do it. If u want u can do video of anything that you are struggling with, email them to me and I can upload them to YouTube for so that people can properly see, I feel that really helped when getting feedback on my stuff.
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Old 1 Day Ago   #111
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Re: Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

Quote Originally Posted by everson38 View Post
Yep the same happened to me, my fork prong bent, bit it shows how hard we must of been trying to tigthen. After that I was still able to use it but had to hold it a certain angle. Yes I would order a new one for sure. But try to just align the notches and then they tighten with a wrench as much as it can just before the notches start to.love again, I had to do this a few times just to get a feel of when I knew how much tension it will take before the notches start to move. My car was all n the air for about a week doing 6 hours a day on this, so don't worry, I believe if O can do it, honestly anyone can do it. If u want u can do video of anything that you are struggling with, email them to me and I can upload them to YouTube for so that people can properly see, I feel that really helped when getting feedback on my stuff.
Thanks @everson38, I'm going to persevere for now but got an MOT coming up so could do with getting the job done asap! I feel like I'm almost there but maybe getting something wrong.

I've just been out and redone everything and same problem, crankshaft is in time but camshaft is slightly out The guide I'm following (Gates) says to check the timing (with the tools) after turning the crank twice after tensioning the tensioner to the max. I noticed Haynes and eLearn don't say to do that, only to check it all times after you've tensioned the tensioner the second time (not to the max, to the notches)

The only bit I'm unsure about is slackening the camshaft pulley. I'm not sure why you need to do that, 'cos the camshaft is all locked in place already? I'm using the camshaft pulley locking tool that you bolt to the cylinder head. With this tool in place, it's still possible to move the camshaft pulley slightly as the tooth of the tool isn't exactly the same width as the belt tooth - so maybe that's why it's a little out?

I'm going to undo it all and try again! I'll try take some pics or a video
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Old 1 Day Ago   #112
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Exclamation Re: Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

Guides section -> "Timing belt" thread (1.2 8V EVO 2 Engine Cam Belt replacement). It's about 8V engines, but idea is the same...
You don't mess with the camshaft/VVT wheel ("eLearn" bull$hit). And you set the tensioner once.
Water pump (bearings) is also responsible for belt tension or how (where) it rides the pulleys.
That's all. It is still 80's technology, simple engines (F.I.R.E. family).
Most servicing, scheduled maintenance can be done old way, DIY at home.
Besides tools, make your own paint-marks, everywhere (belt<->wheels/pulleys), count the teeth.

If it's still wrong...YOU are doing something wrong. Or parts are incorrect ones (belt - number of tooth?) or timing tools.
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Last edited by GrandePunto PL; 1 Day Ago at 18:34. Reason: ...come on, it's not a rocket-science.
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Old 1 Day Ago   #113
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Re: Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

Quote Originally Posted by GrandePunto PL View Post
Guides section -> "Timing belt" thread (1.2 8V EVO 2 Engine Cam Belt replacement). It's about 8V engines, but idea is the same...
You don't mess with the camshaft/VVT wheel ("eLearn" bull$hit). And you set the tensioner once.
Water pump (bearings) is also responsible for belt tension or how (where) it rides the pulleys.
That's all. It is still 80's technology, simple engines (F.I.R.E. family).
Most servicing, scheduled maintenance can be done old way, DIY at home.
Besides tools, make your own paint-marks, everywhere (belt<->wheels/pulleys), count the teeth.

If it's still wrong...YOU are doing something wrong. Or parts are incorrect ones (belt - number of tooth?) or timing tools.
Your comment interests me. Are you advocating changing the belt without slackening the cam sprocket bolt? If so I whole heartedly agree with you BUT - You need to be sure the cam timing is correctly set up before you start. Why? Because all you will achieve is the same timing as before you started so if someone before you has failed to tighten the pulley in the correct position in relation to the camshaft itself all you will just be achieving is what was already there. I was very interested to explore this when I did Becky's belt a wee while ago. You can read all about it here: https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/4599...3=#post4338582

Then a wee while later i did the belt on my boy's 1.4 8 valve Punto which you can read some comments on here: https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/4606...9=#post4344018

I can't think of any reason why it's any different with the 16 valve - of course the twin cams look different but the basic operation is the same, no? You do need to check that the timing is all correct before you start though because if it's wrong before you start and you are not slackening and realigning the pulley, then it's going to be wrong when you've finished. Some people have said to me "Oh but you are not taking manufacturing differences in the belt into account" My reply is that I believe modern belts are so accurately made that this is not a factor worth thinking about - certainly not on an every day "cooking" engine.

I'm a great believer in letting "sleeping dogs lie" and I think in this instance if you can leave that cam bolt alone by checking your timing before you start that's definitely the way to go!
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Old 23 Hours Ago   #114
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Re: Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

Made some progress yesterday. I was doing something wrong, either with the cam pulley or the tensioning - although I'm not exactly sure what. I started over, and made sure to tension the belt before torquing the cam pulley bolt (I may have been doing those two things the other way round before).

All nicely in time now I do think you guys are right about not needing to loosen the cam pulley. I believe it's to make it easier to fit the belt, but it didn't seem to make much difference to me. Mine was marked up with tip-ex from a previous job so I used that to put it back to how it was originally aligned, but I had the cam locking tools in place anyway so not sure if that was really necessary. Does it matter how the pulley is positioned if you have the cams locked? I assume it's only important to pay attention to the pulleys position if you are relying on marking it with tipex against the head and don't have the locking tools..

Now onto the next problem: I think the threads in the cylinder head for the engine mounts are stripped as the bolts won't tighten
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Old 22 Hours Ago   #115
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Re: Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

I think you've just stated here what your problem was caused by. If the belt is not fully tensioned BEFORE you tighten the cam sprocket bolt then further tightening of the belt is almost bound to alter the relationship between the crank and cam shafts.

If you have the cams locked and your crank positioned correctly (on your 16 valve engine that's done with the tool through the plug 'oles so you set the pistons all half way up/down the bores I think? then the position of the sprocket will be dictated by the tightened belt.

I remember on both engines (our own 1.2 non VVT panda and my boy's 1.4 VVT 8 valve Punto) that the bolts holding the engine mount to the front of the head were very tight indeed. Had to put a length of pipe over the spanner/wrench to slacken them. (I say spanner/wrench because I couldn't get at one of the bottom bolts on the Panda even with my "fancy" compact Vortex sockets and had to use a combination spanner with the length of pipe to get enough leverage) I remember they nearly all made a quite alarmingly loud "crack" as they first moved!

Ps, My guess would be that you should at least be able to elevate the engine enough with a jack to drill the holes out for helicoils without disconnecting the gearbox mount I think? but I've never tried it so don't take that as "gospel"
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