Ok folks, just for starters, I've already posted quite a bit about this in the Panda (2003 to 2012) section. It got there as the thread is about "what shares the drive with your Panda" - well, in my case its a Punto and an Ibiza. It just so happens that we are having clutch problems with the Punto (2012 1.4 8 valve 199 model) so, as far as the clutch goes, it's just like a Grand Punto. So I thought, as this thread consistently attracts a high number of viewers, I'd post here in the hope that someone who is very familiar with Puntos might be able to help

To briefly sum up the problem here's a quick resume of progress to date. My oldest boy - whose car it is - tells me the clutch feels "funny" and leaves the car with me whilst he and his family go off on their summer hols. Thanks son! As soon as I drive it it's very apparent there is a problem as the clutch pedal has very long travel with all the "action" happening within about an inch of the floor.

Got to be air in the system I hear you all shout in unison. Well yes, I thought so too! Checked out the slave and master cylinders for leaks and obvious defects, all looked ok. Bled more than 1/2 a litre of fluid through it and although there was a very small amount of "fizz" came through with the first stroke or two the rest was all clear fluid. This produced no improvement in the pedal.

Next I went back and very carefully rechecked all the hydraulics but could find absolutely no clues, it all looked A1. Still behaving like a text book case of air in the system though. So, it really has to be something going on internally with the master cylinder, doesn't it? Oh well, I bought a good quality new master cylinder and tried to fit it. I had the bolts and connections all free within about half an hour and bloody lacerations on the back of my left hand! So the cylinder was all free but I couldn't see how to get it out. There's bits of the mounting bracket in the way! Mr Haynes didn't warn about any of this! About two hours later I had got no further so contacted my local Fiat Indy (Harrisons) who told me they were very difficult to do (actually that language has been sanitized) and that other bits and pieces have to come out for access. Would I like them to do it for me? Well, at 73 years old, with my arthritis bothering me considerably, to say nothing of the blood dripping from my left hand, I said YES, thank you, put it all back together and drove it down to them. Took the lead mechanic just under 4 hours! Turns out the pedal cluster has to be partially removed. So, master cylinder replaced - at no small cost - but, darn it, no change in clutch action! In fact it feels no different at all!

I think, although I had diagnosed that a new master cylinder was needed that I was probably wrong, the guys though, were in agreement and slightly embarrassed when that didn't fix it. We put our heads together and decided that the problem was most likely the clutch itself. Maybe worn diaphragm fingers/release bearing? cracked diaphragm? (although there were no "funny" noises) who could say but we all agreed that the 'box should come out for a look see. Unfortunately this sort of heavy lifting is now just beyond me so I left them to it. With it all on the floor it could be seen that there were signs of a previous owner having been a "clutch pedal rider" as the ends of the diaphragm release arms were deeply grooved - but none were broken off - The driven plate was also pretty near the end of it's life but at the end of the day nothing was found that might point to the problem. A new Valeo clutch was fitted and the whole thing built back up again. I was not surprised to find that, although the new clutch now gave a very light pedal - as is often the case with a new cover assembly - the action was still all in that last inch before the pedal hit the floor. The garage power bled the system for me but still absolutely no change and no air found in the hydraulics!

So, another big bill which my boy won't be expecting after his holiday (they're back on Saturday) I think I'll have to "sub" him for some time. We've now replaced everything but the slave cylinder, which is not leaking and visually looks fine, so where to now? by the way it occurred to me to visually check the operation of the release arm/slave cylinder compared to our 2010 Panda 1.2 8 valve which is an almost identical set up and it is immediately obvious that the Punto's release arm does not move anything like as far as the Panda's. Got to be a hydraulic problem hasn't it? Anyway the garage is convinced the problem now lies with the slave cylinder - it is the only component we haven't changed after all! They are obtaining one and were going to fit it today but haven't rung so I'm hoping it'll be tomorrow.

My big problem is that the old slave looks absolutely fine and shows no sign of leaking at all. In my experience all that usually happens with slaves is they either work or leak? So late yesterday and again today I've been examining everything in detail and I just can't figure it out - except - If you follow the pipe from the master cylinder it goes behind the engine and into this "thingy"



Which sits just behind the ABS unit behind the battery



Another pipe comes out of it and goes underneath the battery to a flex hose (like a brake flex hose) which plugs into the back end of the slave cylinder near where the bleed is. My panda has a connector half way between the master and slave but it's just a connector. This thing looks like it could contain some sort of "device" maybe a diaphragm of some sort or? who knows? If the new slave doesn't sort it I'm going to try clamping off the flex hose - just as you would a brake flex when changing a cylinder or caliper - and see if the pedal is still poor. If it is, it's got to be this "thingy" hasn't it? Anyone know what's inside it? surely it's too big and complicated looking to just be a pipe connector like the Panda? I'm very suspicious of it.

So, any suggestions anyone? please.
Regards
Jock

Hi Jock.

What a saga..

Is it a shared fluid reservoir?

I had a fiat twincam that almost went through a building when the shared supply failed to deliver enough fluid to the clutch slave.

Did you get to bleed fluid yourself..?

It may be they injected fluid into the slave.. rather than letting the reservoir do the feeding.

Worth a check..

Charlie

I've had a look on eper didn't seem to list it as a seperate part
Shown as part of the pipework

varesecrazy said:

Hi Jock.

What a saga..

Is it a shared fluid reservoir?

Did you get to bleed fluid yourself..?

It may be they injected fluid into the slave.. rather than letting the reservoir do the feeding.

Worth a check..

Charlie

Click to expand...

Hi Charlie. Thanks for the support. Yes the reservoir is shared, unlike our Pandas, but it's got plenty of fluid in it and I had the supply pipe to the m/cyl disconnected when I had my aborted attempt at changing the cylinder - it was clean as a whistle.

The bleeding doesn't seem to be a problem I've bled it myself when I first thought it was just trapped air and it was absolute text book stuff. Then the garage power bled it after they got such a poor pedal following the clutch change and I asked about how it bled (because after all this it still has all the hallmarks of trapped air - but it just can't be) they said the bleed went well and they can't see it being trapped air!

I'm becoming obsessed with what I've called the "thingy" I wish I could find an illustration of what's inside it or even a detailed written description. If anyone does please post it won't you?

All the best
Jock

chris3234 said:

I've had a look on eper didn't seem to list it as a seperate part
Shown as part of the pipework

Click to expand...

Yup Chris, it does doesn't it. Thanks for making me think of looking at ePER. I'm not very good with it and have got lost a few times in the past. This time it all seemed to make sense to me though and I got right there within a couple of minutes! As you say it looks like it comes complete with the pipework - bet that's going to cost! By the time I've got this sorted out I'm going to have spent enough money to buy an old banger!

There seem to be three reference part numbers, does that mean there are three different versions? That'll be fun trying to find the right one. Mind you I guess the boys at S4p would sort one out for me.

Thanks again
Jock

Pugglt Auld Jock said:

Yup Chris, it does doesn't it. Thanks for making me think of looking at ePER. I'm not very good with it and have got lost a few times in the past. This time it all seemed to make sense to me though and I got right there within a couple of minutes! As you say it looks like it comes complete with the pipework - bet that's going to cost! By the time I've got this sorted out I'm going to have spent enough money to buy an old banger!

There seem to be three reference part numbers, does that mean there are three different versions? That'll be fun trying to find the right one. Mind you I guess the boys at S4p would sort one out for me.

Thanks again
Jock

Click to expand...

If you didn't put a vin number in there's different versions shown for various engines guessing they have slightly different routing for differing position's of the gearboxes

I will have to look on my 2012

Lots of room..with only a 2 cylinder motor in there.

What can its function be?

Non return valve.. unlikely (as such)

Odd that.. IF I can get a decent pic.. I will post in tech talk

As it MAY be rolled out in many models from 2010..

I 'dodged a bullet' years ago.. with a renault espace diesel.. project for me.. to fix up for my sister.

Typical Renault.. lots of innovation.. sometimes misguided!!

The clutch hydrailcs failed.. was a dashout job.

Replacing the whole clutch line from pedal to gearbox.. NO RESERVOIR.. a sealed system.
A workmate bought it.. did the clutch..and lasted a month before terminal engine management failure

I will stick with Italian thanks

I'd noticed this "thingy" myself before now and wondered what it was. Your post prompted me to look for an answer.

After a bit of searching around I found two of them on EBay ...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152664578481

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/123719778627

... it's a clutch accumulator.

According to the Internet (e.g. here and here) a clutch accumulator makes it easier to operate the clutch (smoother engagement).

Pickwick said:

I'd noticed this "thingy" myself before now and wondered what it was. Your post prompted me to look for an answer.

After a bit of searching around I found two of them on EBay ...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152664578481

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/123719778627

... it's a clutch accumulator.

According to the Internet (e.g. here and here) a clutch accumulator makes it easier to operate the clutch (smoother engagement).

Click to expand...

Thank you so very very much for that Pickwick. It looks as if it may be some sort of restrictor or something which in some way affects pedal stroke -maybe some sort of diaphragm as I was guessing - from what i read in those links of yours. The slave cylinder is already on it's way to me so I'll try fitting it first but if that doesn't fix the problem then it's just got to be this "thingy" gizmo - hasn't it? he said nervously and without great conviction. The garage tells me they've done hundreds of Punto clutches and never changed one of these "thingys". Always a first time I suppose. I was talking to the owner not 10 minutes ago and he says he thinks it's a "valve" but can't tell me what it's function is. I'm going to try the main agent to see if I can talk to a technician or workshop foreman to get their take on it. I'll not be holding my breath though, I almost died of frustration and old age last time I tried to get past the front of house service desk!

If I learn anything useful I'll pass it on.

Modern cars eh?

No wiring to it so that's ruled out.

An accumulator, with a back plate that will come off, hence the hex hole?

May be a sprung loaded diaphragm inside to take care of over stroke, or as a help to make the clutch feel lighter??

Make and part number on so so try the manufacturer??

Does the slave cyl have any adjustment of its mechanism like an adjustable rod between cylinder piston and clutch fork???

These cars are new to me, so all this is guess work, please be gentle with me.

puntodad19 said:

Modern cars eh?

No wiring to it so that's ruled out.

An accumulator, with a back plate that will come off, hence the hex hole?

May be a sprung loaded diaphragm inside to take care of over stroke, or as a help to make the clutch feel lighter??

Make and part number on so so try the manufacturer??

Does the slave cyl have any adjustment of its mechanism like an adjustable rod between cylinder piston and clutch fork???

These cars are new to me, so all this is guess work, please be gentle with me.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the contribution Puntodad, the more the merrier. Ok, today has been a day of trying to find things out about this "thingy" because the new slave cylinder has still not arrived so I haven't been able to swop it out with the old one. I've been in at Harrison's again (it's them who are procuring the cylinder for me) and they are still convinced that the new slave is going to "fix" it - I'm still not so sure. Apparently it's to be here tomorrow morning so I'll just pick it up and fit it myself.

As I couldn't work on the car I decided to have a clear out so loaded the Jazz's old discs, my big waste oil container, an old bar shower I replace recently and a number of other items into the Ibiza and went down to the recycling centre. I go right past the Fiat main dealer on this road so called in to see if a "techie" could tell me exactly what's inside this "thingy" and how it works. I wasn't surprised to find I couldn't get past the girls on the reception desk who, unsurprisingly, had absolutely no idea what I was talking about. They did however advise me to go on , guess what? - The Fiat Forum! We're famous chaps! Anyway on the way out I noticed the main workshop door was slightly open. Being one to not miss an opportunity, I was going to slip in and try to speak to someone but just as I drew level a young lad came out lighting up a smoke as he came. He was very pleasant, told me he was an apprentice and could he help. Unfortunately he couldn't and "the men" were all away in the tea room on their break so I retired to Halfords, just across the road as I know some of the chaps who work there. Asked them if they knew anything about the "thingy". they knew of it's existence but not why it's used or how it works. Interestingly though one of them said his brother, who is a techie in a main agent - didn't volunteer which - had been talking about one he'd done on a Kia recently. Looks like they are proliferating!

So, what have I learnt/deduced so far about this "mystery device"? Well, as you say puntodad, it has no wires so must be purely mechanical. Good I like that, means there's some hope of understanding how it works! Looking at the one in the car and examples on the internet Google/ebay/etc I'm pretty sure you are right when you say it's probably a diaphragm with a spring behind it and it's there, I think, to smooth out clutch action? (it may also function to accommodate "over stroke). A very helpful storeman in the agent has looked it up for me and thinks he's identified it. He's sent me an email attachment showing it and it looks right. surprisingly he recons it's just £16.44 + VAT It comes with the pipe to the slave flex (not the flex itself) but not the pipe from the m/cyl. He did comment that Fiat have used a number of very slightly different connectors and I may have to buy a new master cylinder to "Thingy" pipe if the existing one won't fit and that ups the price quite a bit. So fingers crossed. If it turns out I need one I will also try S4p as I've had excellent results with them in the past.

I know what you mean about an adjustable push rod on the master cylinder. No it is just a fixed length rod with an "eye" in the end to accept the pedal clevis pin:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FIAT-GRA...432826&hash=item4d9bede5b7:g:ts4AAOSw-oZdez3F

One of the garages I worked in early on in my career had a DAF cars franchise. Then when Volvo took over DAF cars we were wiped out by the aggressive sales campaigns of the much bigger Volvo agent nearby. Before we knew it the boss had taken on Polski Fiat! Many many almost unbelievable tales to tell about them but one of the best was when a couple of us were sent to rescue a customer stuck on Princes Street with the brakes on hard. The adjustable rod on the master cylinder was incorrectly adjusted so that the cylinder could not recuperate. As a result the master cylinder was working like a hydraulic jack and just jacking the brakes on harder and harder every time the pedal was pressed. We actually managed to drive the car back to the garage by stopping periodically and slackening the bleed nipples to let the brakes off. Luckily we always kept brake fluid in the Land Rover recovery truck.

So the adventure goes, expensively, onwards. I've got this horrid little voice inside me saying "actually all that was wrong was this Thingy @ £16.44 + VAT - and you've spent how much?" Funnily enough the "little voice" sounds not unlike Mrs Jock's!?

Stay safe everyone
Jock

Ta pics:

Looks exactly the same as our Punto's cylinder. Even the hose run is the same!

Well folks, It gives me the very greatest pleasure to be able to announce that the Punto clutch problem is resolved! Hooooray (as the yanks say). The new slave cylinder completely transformed it!

This has been the most frustrating and costly job I've tackled in a long time. I've been thinking back over the sequence of events to try to see where I went "wrong". You'll remember the car was left with me whilst my son was on his holidays so I could service it with him mentioning the clutch felt "funny". I don't think, now, that "funny" is the word I'd choose. When I collected the car from his house and drove it across town (stressful as it wondered if I was going to make it it was that bad) the clutch action was all happening within about an inch of the floor! Has to be air in the system I thought, I'll give it a bleed through and see what happens. As I had all the service stuff waiting I got the service out of the way first - which went well - and then bled the clutch. There was no air in the fluid but the pedal "feel" was unchanged. Next I checked the master and slave cylinders. They looked fine. absolutely nothing strange looking and no leaks - strange/ Got Mrs J to work the clutch and, oh, the slave doesn't look to be moving the release lever very far? Double checked by looking at the Panda's - which is an almost identical set up - and right enough, the Punto arm is only moving about half as far. Well, got to be the master hasn't it? No visible leaks or defect on the slave after all. Bought a new master and got into the fiasco trying to fit it (detailed earlier in the thread) but, no change in pedal action! Must be the clutch itself? Consulted with other mechanics and interacted with our forum and people seemed to agree. These days, at 73 and with my arthritis I might manage to do a "box out" job in my driveway - done it often in the past - but what toll it would take on me I'm not now sure. So handed it over to Kenny and his "merry men" who fitted a complete 3 piece Valeo clutch kit for me. "Unutterable" expletive here! It made absolutely no difference to clutch action except to make what action there is, lighter!

Utterly dejected by now, We all (myself and a couple of Kenny's mechanics) decided it had to be the slave. But, strangely, no one has one. Several factors and main dealer approached. So Kenny kindly put it on VOR order for me and said it would be here Wednesday as there seemed to be one in Glasgow. This was when I discovered this Accumulator "thingy" and started looking into how it works and affects the system. Wednesday came and went, then Thursday, I've got a good relationship with these guys so didn't want to "bug" them but when I'd still heard nothing by Friday mid morning I rang them up. Oh, sorry, it's here came in with this mornings delivery. Could probably fit it tomorrow if you like? Can I just pick it up and fit it myself? Aye sure. Right, I'm on my way. We spent a good half hour searching the stores area in the workshop (they don't have an actual stores room) but couldn't find it. The garage was very busy with Kenny making calls to customers but in between he phoned the supplier for me to discover the cylinder had been missed off that day's delivery! They'll send it tomorrow. I left it 'till 10 o'clock on the next day (Saturday) to give the delivery time to be made, but when I rang the phone just rang out. Jumped in the car and went to the garage. I'm not surprised they didn't answer the 'phone the place was mobbed with work and there seemed to be only two men in - there was no way they could have done my cylinder anyway! I was greeted in their usual friendly way and told "cylinder's over there, just take it and see Kenny on Monday about money". 3/4 of an hour later the cylinder was fitted and bled out and Yippee! we've got a good pedal and a nice, very smoothly working, new clutch!:



The above is a pic I took of the new cylinder after installation and if you look to the left of the picture you can see my home made pipe clamp on the flex hose. I mention this for two reasons. First is that with the clamp blocking the flow of fluid through the flex (helps stop fluid leaking away and air getting in when the pipe is disconnected from the cylinder) There is nowhere for the fluid to go so I tried putting my foot on the clutch pedal to see how much "give" the accumulator "thingy" was introducing into the system - which one might expect if it is indeed some sort of a diaphragm/springy thing. To my great surprise there was absolutely no "give" in the clutch pedal at all. It felt just like you would expect it to feel if the pipe was clamped up. So I'm absolutely no further along with understanding what the "thingy" is or how it works. The good thing is that, whatever it does it must be doing it as the pedal now feels fine and the clutch works normally.

The other reason for mentioning this home made tool is that it became part of the conspiracy to frustrate me in that it's "hooky" end - see this photo:



got itself jammed under the back end if the drawer above it as I was trying to get it out of it's drawer. I had to remove the drawer above - with the minor hassle of defeating the drawer stops - before I could get it out. I remember thinking "this is not a good start, what else is going to go wrong"

So, in conclusion, it was the slave cylinder at fault! I diagnosed the master incorrectly (but in my defence, others thought the same) so I did/caused to be done a master when it wasn't strictly needed. The clutch itself wasn't actually at fault but I console myself as we found very deep grooves on the end of the diaphragm fingers and the driven plate was well worn so a clutch would probably have been needed in the next year I would guess.

So that's the clutch all sorted (oooow, should I say that?) a major service done and a few "little jobs" listed for the future. The sump is looking quite sorry for itself and the bolts holding the front exhaust flange together might fail soon? Still that flange has to be split to get the sump job done so I'll just grind them off and install new nuts and bolts on reassembly. Better make a new steady clamp too?



There's also the radiator fan slow speed resistor to replace as the old one is open circuit due to corrosion. It lives in the N/S end of the radiator cowl - The white thing with the electrical connector:



and looks like this when removed:



Then there's a new fan belt (factor supplied an 1148 when it needs to be an 1150) but to be fair his gates book does say an 1148 fits and my Panda takes an 1148 just fine so not quite sure why it doesn't fit the Punto - It very nearly does but just won't quite. Also I notice a very very small weep from the front crank seal which wasn't there when I did a timing belt last year - Ah well, no peace for the wicked.

PS Been looking at the old slave and still can't see what's wrong with it or why it's behaving the way it is. Going to completely dismantle it and get the magnifying glass out when I've nothing better to do.

Not being confident that the slave cylinder was going to "sort" the Punto out I had made no hard arrangements with my older boy as to how we were getting it back to him. They had returned from their holiday the day before and I'd already been in touch to tell him not to be too hopeful. However I discovered when I rang him that they were going to be out at my younger boy's house that afternoon as they were going to offer family support to him and his wife because the midwife was coming mid afternoon to do the "big new baby check up" - don't know what they really call it? but you know, the one where they weight them and make a hole in the poor wee mite's heel so they can take blood to say nothing of the third degree the poor wife gets by way of intimate questioning - I say all this with tongue in cheek of course. These people are wonderful and render an invaluable service. Anyway the "defenceless wee mite" got his own back by peeing all over her!

We -Mrs J and I - were going too so I suggested I drive the car out there, with Mrs J taking our car, and he could take it home from there. I've driven the car - '12 plate 1.4 8 valve Punto Easy - on a number of occasions and found it went well, but that's always been in the city. In fact it deals with sleeping policemen much better than my Ibiza which pitches badly. As you leave the city heading east on the A1 it turns into a dual carriageway and, as you leave the last roundabout it becomes a 50mph and you climb a slope for the next few hundred yards. I think everything leaving the roundabout overtook me! The weight of the car and that poor wee 1.4 8 valve make it probably slower than our wee Panda. But then I was over the hump, up into 5th and cruising along nicely at 50. Branching off at the city bypass it goes up to 70! A short distance further on I need to take the slip off onto the A68- I never did see 70 before the turn off! Then, on the A68 there's a nice long flat straight (back with two way traffic now) and I manage to get her cranked up to 60 very well but then we start climbing and it goes on for maybe a mile or mile and a half as the road starts the climb up out of the Forth valley towards Pathead. She won't hold 60 in 5th! had to drop back to 4th to maintain progress. I actually find this a bit strange because it's not as if she hauls "tall" gears. In fact I think she's quite low geared. The odd glance at the dash revealed around the 3,000 rpm or maybe a wee bit more when cruising. Not withstanding this I actually rather enjoyed the journey. The car is really very comfortable, easy to drive and relatively quiet - wouldn't choose specifically to use it for one of our visits to Devon or Salisbury though!

1. You have been bitten in the a$$ by textbook basics.
Hydraulic equipment can leak internally (piston seal), act funny, and fool you to do the bleeding or replace the pump prematurely.

Chill out, happens to me occasionally too (neglecting basics backfires, while doing DIY repairs). That's OK.
So I'm on your side (I've got your back).

2. Second thing is the clutch replacement. You should always replace "everything", clutch set and arm/fork with bushings. Fork wears out too (plus rust), and can spoil the clutch operation.

3. Third issue. UK is a rainy country, right? Car underneath protection, rust proofing, seems to be NOT so popular. Why not?
It is the single, most important thing to do with your car if you really care (not oil changes, not paint polishing/wax, etc.). If body is rotten, there is (almost) no point in maintaining the rest (paint, brakes, suspension, engine and so on). Then some of you are "surprised" that for example, car fails the MOT.

GrandePunto PL said:

Second thing is the clutch replacement. You should always replace "everything", clutch set and arm/fork with bushings. Fork wears out too (plus rust), and can spoil the clutch operation.

3. Third issue. UK is a rainy country, right? Car underneath protection, rust proofing, seems to be NOT so popular. Why not?

Click to expand...

Thanks for that. I agree that the release mechanism needs to be carefully examined. Although I've seen it before, and fallen foul of that little fork retaining bolt which shears it's end off! (that was on the older cars) I'm not quite so familiar with the Fiat way of doing it as I am with the more usual arm which straddles the 1st motion shaft and pivots on a ball on the other side of the bellhousing. I've seen them with the ball punched right through the arm. So we did very carefully examine and "wiggle about" the fork and its spindle before deciding that any wear was so minimal we'd just let it go. The proof of the pudding, in this particular instance, would seem to be that the clutch is now working just fine. Mind you, I would far rather have an external slave with all it's shortcomings of moving parts to wear, than a concentric! All very well on paper from the point of view of efficiency but in practice, if it leaks, it's a box out job! What clever clogs thought that would be a good idea - or maybe just didn't think about us poor sods or the customer who has to pay?

Yup, we sure get a lot of rain, my back garden is awash this very day, but the big problem up here in Scotland is SALT. I'm always amazed at the number of older cars I see running around in very serviceable condition when we are at my Mrs sister's down in Devon. Older cars like them are all in the scrappies up here unless they've been owned by an enthusiast who has taken exceptional care and washed the underside regularly.

Rustproofing? For a start most people don't like doing it. A horrid, mucky, boring task with little to show for it when you've finished - just the satisfaction of you yourself knowing it's done. Until that is you find a big hole rusted through from the inside where you missed a bit you couldn't see or you try to undo a captive fixing and half the mounting tears out of the box section because the fixing is effectively welded together with corrosion which again you didn't quite cover because it was in an awkward corner you couldn't get the wand to reach. I lost my faith in rustproofing when we used to sell one of those professional "high profile" products. One of our salesmen was very good at it and, I think, made a lot of bonus on it, but the cars rusted just the same, only took a bit longer. - not to say I don't think it's worth taking what precautions you can, just don't get too obsessed and expect you are going to stop rust all together.

PS Please don't take any of that as a criticism Grande Punto PL. I greatly value whatever anyone cares to post and indeed I'm hoping people will come up with things or comments I've never thought of and thoughts out side my particular "box". As people will know, I'm old now and my hayday on the tools is well behind me. I classify myself now as an enthusiastic amateur.

I think the only truly effective rust proofing is the acid bath the shell and electrophoretic coating to protect it all as this get every surface exposed to air even inside the chassis's rails and box sections we'll unless they have been sealed air tight

Interesting saga indeed ! Thanks to all participants and specially to Jock for his very pleasant way of writting and explaining things in a language that is rarely seen on Forums (in general).
Living in Belgium and french talking, I can tell you that french talking forums are really horribles the way people write in them: LOTS of mystakes, bad syntax, extended use of acronysms, zero level grammar etc. etc.

Anyway, I know it's easy to say when things are done but lesson from this saga: when facing a multi-options issue, always go to the easiest/cheapest fix first ...
You did it right Jock by bleeding the system first, so I don't really understand why you jumped to the master cylinder job, which by the way is describbed in eLearn as a "funny" one ! (2nd lesson: RTFM first)

Best regards, Bernie.