Thanks for the pics fella. From what I can see of them, the wear on the end of those diaphragm fingers looks very comparable to the one which was in the Punto. Also the shape of the finger (with that "scalloped" shape in the side of the finger) looks like the O/E one which came out of our Punto so you may well be right that it's the original. Have you tried getting someone to press the pedal for you while you observe what's happening? You just might be able to see something going on?

This thread is one of the first I look at when I come onto the forum. Please do continue to keep us updated and do some pics of the old clutch components when you've got it all stripped out.

Good luck with it all
Jock

PS. Anyone who thinks it's "OK" to sit in gear, with their foot down on the clutch, whilst waiting for traffic lights to change, needs to look at this!

Pugglt Auld Jock said:

...Anyone who thinks it's "OK" to sit in gear, with their foot down on the clutch, whilst waiting for traffic lights to change, needs to look at this!

Click to expand...

Jock, isn't that called a thrust BEARING ? In my opinion the wear comes from RADIAL slip of the diaphragm every time the clutch is dis/en-gaged, so foot down would actually be better than two more TB moves. Plus the gearbox wouln't rotate during this, saving fuel and emissions ... Only the bearing won't like it much.

BRs, Bernie

Bernievarian said:

Jock, isn't that called a thrust BEARING ? In my opinion the wear comes from RADIAL slip of the diaphragm every time the clutch is dis/en-gaged, so foot down would actually be better than two more TB moves. Plus the gearbox wouln't rotate during this, saving fuel and emissions ... Only the bearing won't like it much.

BRs, Bernie

Click to expand...

Hmm? You raise good points there Bernie.

I'm a little influenced by the old cars I learned to drive on and cut my teeth on when just starting to "fiddle" with cars. - 1930 Morris Minor - my first car, "saved" from the wrecker's yard for £10. actually quite a lot for a wreck in the late '50's. 1946 Morris 8. 1949 SS Jaguar 31/2 litre saloon - boy do I wish I still had that one! and others. These earlier cars all had carbon thrust release bearings and you kept your foot on that pedal at your peril! So these earlier designs are not relevant today but still have a great influence on me. Yes modern cars have had ball/roller release bearings for many years now but they are all "sealed for life" with no provision to renew lubricant and I've seen too many of them ruined to not be suspicious. Also I think there is an element of misalignment in most setups such that a small amount of "fretting" takes place between the release bearing and the diaphragm fingers.

I think the "gearbox drag" thing was significant in days gone by when heavier gear oils were specified. In fact I remember some people advising that the clutch should be depressed when attempting a cold start so that the transmission drag was eliminated. Being an ex BMC/BL man I've never liked doing this (try researching Triumph 2000 crankshaft thrust washer problems). I think that nowadays any advantage in doing this is minimal because modern gear oils are "super thin" - some even look clear, like water! All in the interests of emissions and fuel economy of course.

So, I'm not entirely convinced, although I'll concede that the wear taking place on the end of diaphragm fingers during the actual depressing of the clutch is probably significant compared to the wear measurable for a similar period of running with the clutch pedal on the floor because the contact surface of the release bearing is "sliding" over the end of the fingers, however sitting with the pedal depressed for a whole operating sequence of the lights? I'm not so sure - and I recon the release bearing is going to get quite hot if you persistently do that at every lights which would encourage lubricant to be lost.

The proof of the pudding for me though is that with cars I've owned almost from new (I usually buy at about a year to 18 months old with perhaps 5 to 10, 000 miles on the clock and keep for many years) I don't really have clutch problems with (perhaps the occasional hydraulic issue) my last car 1999 Ibiza 1.9tdi Cordoba Vario still on its original clutch and well into the low 100.000 miles. Think I'll just stick with what I'm doing - Too damned old now to change anyway!

Kind regards
Jock

The slave cylinder that I installed only lasted 50 miles. I was left with my clutch pedal on the floor at the traffic lights, had no idea what happened. Luckily I had my tool set with me, and after bringing it on the sidewalk for a few minutes, I found out that the stupid plastic rod had snapped. I couldn't believe it. As I was on my way to a job, I had to improvise quick, and found out that the short 1/4" extension plus one of the rounder bits in my tool kit , would extend to about the same lenght as the acutal rod. But all this was possible because I stopped pumping the pedal straight away, otherwise, the piston would have been pushed out and bye bye brake fluid, also lots of air to bleed after that. It was close though, it got so far up the cylinder, I could see most of the rubber seal. I managed to put it back together, and it worked, I will leave it as it is until I change the clutch this weekend.
This shows how bad the quality of a spare part is these days, even worse in this case, because we are talking about a part that renders the car undrivable, dangerous if you're on the motorway, and for most people that could mean a big expense to recover or get it fixed on the side of the road.All this because of a poor quality £20 part. Should have gone for the metal one, but I wanted it quickly, and this was the only one available for next day. Next step now, clutch change, won't wait any longer, there is no getting out of that one, if the bearing goes through the diaphragm fingers. I'll let you know about the outcome. ?

libarca said:

The slave cylinder that I installed only lasted 50 miles. I was left with my clutch pedal on the floor at the traffic lights, had no idea what happened. Luckily I had my tool set with me, and after bringing it on the sidewalk for a few minutes, I found out that the stupid plastic rod had snapped. I couldn't believe it. As I was on my way to a job, I had to improvise quick, and found out that the short 1/4" extension plus one of the rounder bits in my tool kit , would extend to about the same lenght as the acutal rod. But all this was possible because I stopped pumping the pedal straight away, otherwise, the piston would have been pushed out and bye bye brake fluid, also lots of air to bleed after that. It was close though, it got so far up the cylinder, I could see most of the rubber seal. I managed to put it back together, and it worked, I will leave it as it is until I change the clutch this weekend.
This shows how bad the quality of a spare part is these days, even worse in this case, because we are talking about a part that renders the car undrivable, dangerous if you're on the motorway, and for most people that could mean a big expense to recover or get it fixed on the side of the road.All this because of a poor quality £20 part. Should have gone for the metal one, but I wanted it quickly, and this was the only one available for next day. Next step now, clutch change, won't wait any longer, there is no getting out of that one, if the bearing goes through the diaphragm fingers. I'll let you know about the outcome. ?

Click to expand...

What brand was the slave cylinder so others can avoid them?

What a pain! full marks for improvisation! I'm not all that keen on plastic engine parts myself. We recently had a misfire on my younger boy's Astra which was disappointing because I had fitted a new coil pack to it just a year or so ago to cure this very problem.

It turned out to be an oil leak from the cam cover which was letting oil into the spark plug recesses and getting up the end of the HT parts of the coil pack - was leaking down the front of the head too, right onto the exhaust manifold, nice! I decided to buy a genuine manufacturers gasket from the dealer - not a fortune, Around £20.00 I seem to remember - as he needs the car for his work and I wanted it to stay fixed. At the parts counter I was asked if I wanted a complete cover assembly, comes with the gasket too - at an eye watering cost. Apparently these, plastic, covers are well known for warping and for the integral breather valve failing. At that price I decided to risk just doing the gasket. So far we seem to be getting away with it I'm glad to say, but had it been alloy this problem would never have been a problem! Nice little (not so little) earner for Vauxhall though!

Very well done with the bits you had available ! Regarding the plastic thingies, one just have to thanks the lawyers who decided (forced) the car makers to go greeny(er). Less weight, less consumption, less emission, more plastic, more polution, more waste, tax increase (because less consumption) etc etc.
Only a bit more than 100 years ago, you had to wear blue overall to drive a "car" (which is still called a "char" in Canada) and the hammer smith (forgeron?) was often of great help to fix various issues on those "automobiles". They could have fixed this broken rod, nowadays you could had it 3D printed !! Sign of the time ...

BRs, Bernie

Bernievarian said:

(which is still called a "char" in Canada) and the hammer smith (forgeron?) was often of great help to fix various issues on those "automobiles".

Click to expand...

With my daughter's husband's work meaning they were based in Southern Maryland and my sister living a couple of hours west of Boston Mass, We've spent a lot of time in the eastern US over recent years. There are many things which puzzle me about America, which I think is actually a more "foreign" country than any of our European neighbours, but there's one in particular I've never had a satisfactory answer to: Why do they pronounce Herbs as 'erbs? I could understand it in the French speaking parts of Canada perhaps, but in the US?

I think "Forgeron" is a blacksmith? Anyway, whatever, it reminded me of many happy hours spent in the Lindean Smithy as a pre-teen boy - long gone now, I think it's someones house these days - A red glowing charcoal forge with hand pumped bellows and the ring of the anvil as he beat out horseshoes and made the nail holes. Then the smell of burning hoof as the hot shoe was offered up for a fit. Oh how I long for the innocence, simplicity and honesty of those days. (paper tissue time)
Cheers
jock

chris3234 said:

What brand was the slave cylinder so others can avoid them?

Click to expand...

Chris, the brand is Febi Bilstein, a known good brand I must say, I know their filters are up there with the most expensive ones, that's why I never expected this from them. I guess, lately it's becoming harder to stay in business by maintaining a good quality and competitive prices. They made the wrong choice here. This is not a part you can compromise on quality!

So, the clutch on the van was indeed the OEM one, you can see the part numbers in the pictures. The clutch disc itself still had about 70% of life left, if not more, even the thrust bearing was OK, apart from the wear on the backside where the fork was making contact. And also, for who might want to know, thers is a solid mass flywheel fitted on this engine!
But the part that was causing the problem, it is definitely the clutch plate, just look at that wear, in this case, it has lost the battle of hardness with the bearing. With the rest of the clutch kit in such good condition, I really think this is one of the cases Jock wanted to point out. Problem is not sitting with your foot down on the pedal at the traffic lights, in that case the bearing would have lost the battle in the long run, it's the habit of resting your food on the clutch pedal, only its weight, is enough to cause the hydraulic system to transfer
some movement to the thrust bearing, keeping it only slighty engaged with the clutch plate, like "stroking" it if that helps, gently enough, to keep a difference in rotation speeds between them, causing wear on both surfaces. I am sure the bearing is also worn, the contact surface is not as "tall" as it was, it's just not as noticeable due to the fact that is a continuous ring, and it has even wear. We can't say the same about the clutch plate. Is is deeply grooved, and it has uneven wear, probably because the bearing was not applying the force right to the centre anymore, due to the wear on it's back. This translated into a partial disengagement once the fingers got hot enough.
The clutch I fitted is from AP, because it was recommended by someone that changes only clutches for a living, being more sturdy in this case, and I wanted for once to try something other that Valeo or Luk.
The most surprising bit about this kit is how soft the diaphragm spring is! I mean, I knew that the aftermarket clutch kit has a softer spring than the used oem one, but my God, what a difference! I mean compared to my Passat which has 140000 mile still with its original clutch, the vans clutch pedal was way softer, and now I got this. It is so soft I actually thought there's something wrong either in there, or with the hydraulic system. I am not exaggerating when I say that it is almost as soft as my accelerator pedal??. But then I have observed that there's a full travel for my slave cylinder, and reluctanly?, decided to change gears with the engine on. And what a change!??
It actually changes gears with the engine on, the same way it does with the engine off! Which in my van's case, there was a huge difference. What more can I ask? It is a pleasure to drive it now. I'll have to see in the future which cluth part will fail first in this AP kit. I suppose the biggest factor in this case would be driving style, but I know that with me, it will have quite a long life.

Please check out the pictures, maybe it will help more with what I just wrote. I tried to make a comparison between the two kits in some of them. Also notice the gearbox draining plug?! All that fine metal, the result of thousands of miles with a worn clutch.
I am sure a lot of gearboxes got wrecked before someone thought about attaching that strong neodymium magnet to the plug.
It also deserved new transmission oil. Tutela Gearforce 75W, just what the manufacturer recommends on these models.
I am glad I got this sorted, not easy to do it by yourself, and on a driveway, but totally doable if you have the tools and passion.?

Bear in mind that it is the spring/diaphragm who pinch the clutch disk between the plate and the flywheel. So if it is softer than the previous one, either it pinches less (might slip when applying high torque) OR the geometry design has been modified (longer lever), which could explain the full slave cylinder travel you noticed ...

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)

Bernievarian said:

Bear in mind that it is the spring/diaphragm who pinch the clutch disk between the plate and the flywheel. So if it is softer than the previous one, either it pinches less (might slip when applying high torque) OR the geometry design has been modified (longer lever), which could explain the full slave cylinder travel you noticed ...

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)

Click to expand...

Totally agree with what Bernie is saying here. Also there's the fact that it's not manufacturer's original equipment so small changes (such as leverage ratios) might have been made. I think it most likely though that it now feels light simply because it's all new components? The driven plate (friction linings) will be nice and "fat" which means that the diaphragm spring will have been well compressed when the cover assembly was tightened up - did you notice that the diaphragm probably looked almost flat, not dish shaped, when fitted? - The flatter the diaphragm the less force it takes to operate (it'll get heavier as the lining wears).

AP - Automotive Products - was a well known name for quality parts in my day, although their auto box for the Mini/1100 etc was not a great success? I think they gobbled up Borg and Beck who made very good quality clutches and the brand still seems to be quite active today (I see their products on line and in local factors) I don't know however if they are still the same company I knew and trusted or whether they are an "owned" brand name?

WOW! just noticed how much metal seems to have been worn off the contact surface of the old release bearing! (8th picture down in the left column) I've seen clutches with the diaphragm fingers as badly or more worn (as in bits actually broken off) than yours but I can't remember a release bearing with so much metal worn away? More usually the bearing itself will have collapsed and "spat out" the bearings. I guess the new bearing will be pushing the release fork, and so slave cylinder piston, further back than with the old parts. When considered together with the new driven plate and cover assembly this also might be a factor in giving you a lighter action?

If you look for information of "what things are", try also actual part manufacturers (not car manufacturer and clumsy databases like EPER).

The "thingy" is a damper ("frequency modulator" in geeky language) to reduce pedal vibrations.
Probably, only right side driver seat cars (like in UK) have them. Why, I don't know (length of the lines/hoses?).

Document link (added as attachment too in case of original link failure): https://www.aligas.com/storage/app/media/catalogos/manual fte.pdf

"Low quality parts" is true these days. But folks, pay attention to the info given in the document. There is a limit plus/minus 2 degrees of push-rod "cocking". In the pump (master) and actuator (slave).
But slave has inferior design - no extra ball joint (master has both ends of push rod like that). So slave push rod and piston and the seal is rocking to the sides at each stroke (clutch release arm/lever moves in an arc, not straight line) = potential leaks and/or air-lock problems. So position matters when you install the slave (mounting holes have a "play"). Maybe that's the (partial) explanation of why those slaves keep failing (leak or need to bleed the air fairly often).

Plus of course, there are clutch itself breakdowns. Or wrong parts installed (change/limit of the stroke). Example: https://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=417896

GrandePunto PL said:

If you look for information of "what things are", try also actual part manufacturers (not car manufacturer and clumsy databases like EPER).

The "thingy" is a damper ("frequency modulator" in geeky language) to reduce pedal vibrations.
Probably, only right side driver seat cars (like in UK) have them. Why, I don't know (length of the lines/hoses?).

Document link (added as attachment too in case of original link failure): https://www.aligas.com/storage/app/media/catalogos/manual fte.pdf

"Low quality parts" is true these days. But folks, pay attention to the info given in the document. There is a limit plus/minus 2 degrees of push-rod "cocking". In the pump (master) and actuator (slave).
But slave has inferior design - no extra ball joint (master has both ends of push rod like that). So slave push rod and piston and the seal is rocking to the sides at each stroke (clutch release arm/lever moves in an arc, not straight line) = potential leaks and/or air-lock problems. So position matters when you install the slave (mounting holes have a "play"). Maybe that's the (partial) explanation of why those slaves keep failing (leak or need to bleed the air fairly often).

Plus of course, there are clutch itself breakdowns. Or wrong parts installed (change/limit of the stroke). Example: https://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=417896

Click to expand...

Left hand drive cars have cable operated clutch's not hydrolic

chris3234 said:

Left hand drive cars have cable operated clutch's not hydrolic

Click to expand...

Scotland might be 'abroad'.. but is still RHD


Fiat gearboxes are on the left of car.. same as the clutch controls

So cable can have a tortuous route to a RHD pedalbox.. if in RH footwell

Some features are carried across the car..under dash

varesecrazy said:

Scotland might be 'abroad'.. but is still RHD


Fiat gearboxes are on the left of car.. same as the clutch controls

So cable can have a tortuous route to a RHD pedalbox.. if in RH footwell

Some features are carried across the car..under dash

Click to expand...

GrandePunto PL said he didn't know why only right hand drive cars have the damper thingy
Hence my comment that left hand drive cars tend to be cable operated rather then hydros

I have a clutch issue with Linea which is related to GP. I just did a complete brake & clutch fluid change, it's the same reservoir. Clutch is more like on/off switch now with biting point a bit too low and if don't remember to release the clutch carefully it'll make the car jump or it'll stall the engine.


The clutch pedal feel was quite incoherent before the fluid change and had trouble engaging the 1st gear but now it works better. It had probably never been bled before. I tend to use lowest rpm possible and lift the pedal quite high.


My question is that is this behaviour usual for a failing slave cylinder and is there a way to reset the clutch adjustment? Of course it all points to a failing clutch but that job comes last. I don't think there's trapped air anymore because i kept bleeding it for quite some time, pumping the pedal and immediately closing the bleeder.

Is failing slave cylinder typical fault for GPs? It's the plastic original one. I'd probably try changing it to the metallic one.

I don't have a statistics for that, there is not so many comments/complaints on the forums etc., but there is a lot of offers online, such parts (slave cyl.) do sell quite well. Why? We can guess...
Pumps (masters) are more robust (but can fail too).

Metal (slave) one - yes, probably worth trying. Plastic one is inferior (design - cocking the seal everytime it moves). However, it can be modified (extra piston added, so it's double seal, extra one not tilting).

There's no "reset". Pump provides the same stroke everytime and slave has internal spring (and that's it - hydraulic clutch is non adjustable). Clutch wear should not matter much (but probably resting position of the release arm, therefore slave will change, shift as clutch wears down - that's why slave has a lot of total travel available, more than actual stroke while operating installed in the car). Pedal "feel" will change a bit, but it's hard to tell what exactly is wrong (unless you compare two cars, with bad and new clutch).

What was the exact bleeding procedure in your case?
Good one is a combination of gravity and manual (pedal push).
Open the bleeder (wait for fluid going out), go to the car, push the pedal with your hand and leave it on the floor. Go back to the engine bay, close the bleeder, go back to car and slowly lift the pedal. "Rinse and repeat" 2-3 times and it should be OK (even when it's a slave cylinder swap, it should be enough, 3-4 times, plus one more after test drive).

Try cheap USB inspection camera, look inside the housing, you should be able to check the clutch release arm/lever, thrust/release bearing and some more for obvious damage/wear.

I did the bleeding exactly as you described for numerous of times but i had to get other person to pump pressure on the pedal and then hold it on the floor and then i'd immediately open the valve and close the valve when the flow of liquid was slowing down. It had probably never been changed before.


Maybe the pedal feel was erratic before and bleeding corrected it. :idea: I just have to get used to it and in the meantime i probably should change the slave cylinder. It doesn't appear to be a difficult to fit.