llamallama said:

I wouldn't worry about trying to get it out,
Just seal it up and that's it,
You would still be able to get the manifold off,

Click to expand...

Might lead to gas leaks and wry maniFOLD!
The MIG welding method has been described many times in this forum and has proven its efficiency...

BRs, Bernie

BTW: manifold + converter = maniverter ... How about a manurbo ??

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)

Bernievarian said:

Might lead to gas leaks and wry maniFOLD!
...
BTW: manifold + converter = maniverter ... How about a manurbo ??
...

Click to expand...

How about clutchmission?:idea:

How about clutchless like the konissegg

Woot

torniojaws - have you seing my thread about the same issue? Just drill that stud with 6mm drill 1.5cm inside and then use heat gun + extractor (that conical tool with anti-clock-wise thread. If it doesnt help, just drill it with 8.5 like me, use thread tool 10 and use new stud 10
Just like Bernie said - if you dont solve this issue, it might lead to gas leaks and wry ex manifold. I had also wry manifold and sanding it to flatness was hard manual job

Yup, I have a set of left-handed cobalt drill bits + extractors ordered and on the way, along with 8 new bolts

torniojaws said:

Yup, I have a set of left-handed cobalt drill bits + extractors ordered and on the way, along with 8 new bolts

Click to expand...

Let us know how it works ;-) Plus pictures if you take some...

The most difficult with this drill and extract method is to center the drill bit in the remaining stud. If there ain't enough deepness to install a centering tool as I previously showed, you could reinstall the manifold and use it as a guide, using a dowel where the stud is missing ...

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)

Well, the 8 studs for the manifold arrived, but still waiting for the drill bit + extractor. The studs look correct (well, they should be since the part number matches ).

But meanwhile, I noticed that the head gasket appears to be leaking. Not sure if they are all related, but if the cylinder cover is warped, it's beyond me and my equipment. It would probably be an expensive repair at around 1000 EUR (1100 USD), which is quite close to the actual value of the car itself But let's see what the service says. If it's more than 1000 EUR, then I guess I'll just sell the car for parts and get something else. It's a shame, as the car is otherwise in good condition (passed the inspection just a few months ago) and it's a fun car.

Here's the full chain of events btw:

1. Brought the car for the yearly inspection, where it failed due to emissions (they measure it from the exhaust pipe)

2. Following a tip, I filled it with a 40/60 mixture of E85 (ethanol fuel) / regular 95 RON, and then I drove around for about 25 mins at around 4000 rpm +/- something.
3. The car passed the inspection with mostly 0 emissions, with occasional spikes at just below max passing emissions. After the inspection, I filled the car with normal 95 RON fuel to max.

4. But after that, the car smelled quite bad for a week, but then it started to get back to normal.
5. However, there still remained a lingering bad smell in both the exhaust fumes and also under the hood.
6. I noticed that the pre-cat oxygen sensor was actually smoking from around the hole even when idling, even though it was tightened to spec. I then thought it's just some WD-40 residue burning off, which I applied a day before the next step on the studs and the exhaust pipe bolts.

7. So then I washed the catalytic converter (this thread), and used new gaskets for the manifold and the exhaust pipe side, plus applied new copper paste on the pre and post cat oxygen sensors. That's when the stud snapped, but it didn't show any signs of leaking, flames or odd behaviour.

8. After that, the car still worked well (the oil temperature never rose above nominal), but still smelled quite bad. I didn't see any oil near the cylinder cover.
9. Then after driving for a week or so, I checked how it looked and then I noticed the area just below the cylinder cover having a little bit of oil across the length. Kind of odd, because I never touched that part - just the manifold that is much lower.
10. That's when I stopped driving it, and now I have the service booked for Friday.

Okay, got the verdict back, and it isn't too bad. I probably could have done it myself, if I knew it was just the gasket. No machining needed.

The oil leak is from the cylinder gasket, and the cylinder is not warped.
The bad smell is because of a cracked breather hose.

So probably not too expensive.

Thanks for the update !!

BRs, Bernie

Just to update on the costs:

The cylinder gasket inspection and replacement + inspecting for the smell source was 144,90 EUR (162.77 USD). And then the breather hose was actually some non-standard part that had been installed at some service years ago - presumably due to the actual part being hard to get, just a guess - so they replaced it with the OE hose, which amounted to 88,95 EUR (99.91 USD) of which 49 EUR (55.04 USD) was the price of the OE part + shipping. Could have done that myself, but they had already ordered the part, so not too bad.

So total 233,85 EUR / 262.67 USD.


The drill bits and extractor also arrived a while ago, but waiting for a good timing to start playing around with it, as the car is in daily use. Perhaps during my summer vacation in 7 weeks Planning to also replace the entire exhaust pipe after the manifold, and it seems like the suspension is also starting to get rough. I'm thinking whether to "invest" into the car and get a coilover kit, or just replace with standard parts (KYB seems to be recommended). Then the car should be fairly set for a good while

Hi guys, is it normal that after appr. 6 months after mouting exhaust manifold (changing gasket, grinding flat surface) some of it's nuts went loosen a little bit? Because I started to hear again engine noise inside cabin and ots definately the same sound.... As I remember someone's advice here that I sholud tight these nuts again after mounting when exhaust manifold is hot...?

Im asking because before I broke 1 stud inside head and had big problem to remove it. So Im afraid of tightening those nuts more. I dont have torque wrench but I mounted all nuts strong. Is it normal that those nuts got loose a little bit after 6 months?
Yes, and I used thin metalic gasket intead of that ticker type...maybe that thicker could compensate this tiny leakage...?

Yes, that's possible (nuts went loose). Tightening when hot is a good idea too. And/or re-check after a few thermal cycles (engine heating, cooling and so on).
But torque only (without additional 30 degrees - for repaired threads it might be too much).
Other option is: it was over-tighten (6 months ago), it's already stripped partially.
Suitable torque wrench will be a good idea this time.

Tight them (@ torque), install a counter-nut and they won't get loose anymore ...

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)

Back in the days when I was earning my living "on the tools" (late 60's, 70's and 80's) checking the tightness of fixings was quite a regular feature of the job. A large part of the PDI (Pre delivery Inspection) would involve wandering around under the car - which would be up on a ramp - checking that suspension and sub frame, caliper bolts, drain plugs, etc, etc, were all "nice and tight". You quickly developed a real "feel" for how tight is "tight".

At the first service, whilst the oil was draining, you would wander around with a fistful of spanners doing the same again. This was back in the days of the Mini, MGB, Maxi, Marina, etc, before the advent of stretch bolts and angle tightening. If you were doing a head job on these older engines (which would be A and B series mostly for me - The A series seemed a bit prone to eating exhaust valves? I remember doing quite a few of them and struggling with heads which had seized to the studs so wouldn't come off - The 1850 "slant" Triumph Dolomite engine was well known for being difficult to remove) The customer was always told to bring it back after 500 to 1000 miles to have the head torqued down again and valve clearances set - always a high stress procedure where, from time to time, a stud would either strip or snap necessitating stripping it all down again!

The last models I actually did any factory courses on was Montego Maestro - Anyone remember the fiasco which was the digital dash on those models? They often went wrong before the warranty was up necessitating a complete replacement! By this time stretch bolts, angle tightening and greatly improved factory standards seems to have made reliable tightening guaranteed. However also by now service work in the larger dealers (I was working in a large BL dealer by then) was becoming very organised and time orientated - Lubes (oil & filter changing, greasing ball joints, level checks, etc) were done separately on a flow line. Everything had a "book" time and if you took longer - without good cause - it came out of your bonus time. If you found something wrong during the service you didn't fix it but reported it on the service sheet and carried on. At the end of the service the desk would ring the customer and ask if they wanted the work done. If they did the vehicle would then come back into the shop but sometimes this would not be on the same day! I hated working bonus systems and worked latterly in smaller family shops.

So I guess what I'm saying is that yes "stuff" gets loose! If it's something which was originally a "torque to yield" I would say it shouldn't get loose so something is probably wrong (most likely stripped thread) but with things like manifold bolts, which go through regular large heat cycles, or items subjected to high levels of vibration like exhaust components (before they corrode) it's not that unusual to find the occasional one that's slackened off. I prefer to just manually tighten this sort of fixing as I've found in the past that a second tightening with a torque wrench will sometimes cause damage. Trying to apply angle tightening to a fixing which has already been subject to an angle tightening procedure invariably results in damage, far better to just "snug" it down with a combination spanner or socket!

Thanks guys for help, as usual ;-) I believe that I didnt over-tighten because I was scared that I break another stud As I remeber from manual, there's tightening like 2Nm (which is weak) + 30 degrees. Ok , I'll try to re-tighten nuts and add counter nuts too (on hot). Then I'll drive few days and re-check tightening. My ex man is still not completely flat, on 2nd valve there was still tiny gap like thickness of A4 paper. But manual flattening out was really hard manual job. I asked companies gridening heads, but they cannot grind my ex man because of its shape - its with CAT and they cannot mount it to their machines...only cut CAT away, grind ex man and then weld back togehter. Grinding costs 25 Eur, thats OK price...

Go back to page 1.

There is a screenshot from eLearn. Torque is: 14-16 Nm + 30 degrees angle. So it's not "weak".

Torque is OK, additional angle not so much (probably only in the factory line, for brand new threads).
Guy who started this topic, stripped the stud because he used 24 Nm, wrong value (plus corrosion, probably).

Grinding/milling ("facing") the manifold is possible with "cat", but not in the average engine shop.
They are clueless, incompetent in general machining operations. They are "one trick pony" (engines only).
Ask real machinist (shop with: milling machines, lathes and surface grinders, etc.), it is tricky, but possible.
Guy like that, master level. Random example, from Ukraine: https://www.youtube.com/user/sweetmaksik/videos

GrandePunto PL said:

Go back to page 1.

There is a screenshot from eLearn. Torque is: 14-16 Nm + 30 degrees angle. So it's not "weak".

Torque is OK, additional angle not so much (probably only in the factory line, for brand new threads).
Guy who started this topic, stripped the stud because he used 24 Nm, wrong value (plus corrosion, probably).

Grinding/milling ("facing") the manifold is possible with "cat", but not in the average engine shop.
They are clueless, incompetent in general machining operations. They are "one trick pony" (engines only).
Ask real machinist (shop with: milling machines, lathes and surface grinders, etc.), it is tricky, but possible.
Guy like that, master level. Random example, from Ukraine: https://www.youtube.com/user/sweetmaksik/videos

Click to expand...

The cat is apparently incorrect by the thickness of a piece of paper. 0.05 to 0.1mm and the gasket must be almost 2mm thick.

Perhaps the customer expects too much and it is easier to say we cannot do it?

Yes, that's possible too ("annoying", over-educated, perfectionist customer gets rejected). Another "technique" is overpricing, to make you quit (and never ask again).

But most of the time it's a combination of many reasons (economical - job is not worth it, psychology - laziness/burnout, technical - incompetent/not equipped well).

Technically it is possible, and it is done very often. There is a 0,1 mm warpage allowance in theory, but it's good to be way below that.

Some numbers from workshop manuals are confusing or mixed up. Watch out. Cross-check everything.
Warpage may be "total" (but they don't tell you that, handbook authors don't know), so it's a head surface + manifold = 0,1 mm worst case scenario, not manifold itself.
Then, that makes more sense to "face" it by grinding or milling.

Or DIY "hack" methods (sand paper on the flat glass, ceramic tiles, granite - if it's flat enough for the job).

I checked my eLearn and there was 1.8Nm + 30 degrees. If you guys says that its 15Nm + 30 deg, then OK, I'll check