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Old 20-03-2019   #31
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Re: Injector or valve clearance?

Encountered that exact "ticking when warm" problem on an industrial Mercedes V10 diesel engine (about 400HP) 40 - yes forty - years ago.

The problem ended-up to be one piston that was slightly off specs. Could have also been one rod a bit too long ...

BRs, Bernie

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Old 20-03-2019   #32
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Re: Injector or valve clearance?

Yes Aurick , I was surprised too about this value. But it was before replacing timing belt (timing was moved half of teeth), so it could be those -2 degrees ;-) I'll measure resistance of injectors on hot engine. I can also remove whole ramp, move key to 1st position and check if there's no leaking from injectors. I can crank engine and check injector's "spraying" on piece of paper... and we will see ...I can also clean them at home... And if nothing help, I can be sure that ticking is not caused by spark, injection or camshaft/shimms.
BUT - during engine load I hear in interior strange noise from one cylinder? It's like "PVC bucked full of sand which is beating against metal wall, and all is dipped in oil" . And that could be start of piston slap issue...I don't know...and maybe that high ticking is somehow realted to this "problem"... just like you said Bernie . But here we are talking about full engine general repair :-(

Plus another info about this - previous owner didn't change oil bacause oficial service found oil sludge on VVT electromagnetic valve - and oil was burned. So this can be also proof that something went wrong on this engine. Maybe...maybe....maybe there is worn rod bearing and this causes "plastic-metalic deep sound" during engine load, and because there's distance between rod bearing and crankshaft, top of piston is knocking on some valve... By MES there's little bit higher voltage from knock sensor for cylinder 4.....maybe all this depends together...
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Grande Punto (III) 1.4 8V m.y.2013 (350A1000)

Last edited by Rado77; 20-03-2019 at 14:14.
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Old 20-03-2019   #33
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Arrow Re: Injector or valve clearance?

Stop. Let's go back to page one...
Quote Originally Posted by Rado77 View Post
During timing belt change I asked them to check valve clearances...but they didn't do it! I asked why....they said "there must be whole valve case* restored". I said whaaat? On engine which is running ok and is 5 years old???
1. You can ruin new engine in a few months, so five years is enough to hurt it (example: "long life" oil changes).
2. You cannot "adjust" for wear (for example, in camshaft lobes - "trashed" geometry, out of shape).
3. DoItYourself, pop the cover, take some closeup pictures (lobes, tappets, shims) and post here.
4. Noise can be oil pressure related (among other reasons), do a filter change (yes, filter only), to increase oil flow.
5. You promised to post a numbers (valve "lash" before and after, shim sizes, etc.)... Maybe the clearance must be adjusted one more time, but more precisely ("spot-on"), some engines may be so sensitive (and you cannot work with "traditional" tolerances like 0,05 mm plus/minus, but let's say half of that). That explains "why" they manufacture shims in "microns", third decimal place.

* - "valve train"(?).
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Last edited by GrandePunto PL; 20-03-2019 at 14:47. Reason: Five years old means nothing.
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Old 20-03-2019   #34
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Re: Injector or valve clearance?

Thanks for very good questions! ;-) I can answer only few of them:

1, you are right, it's possible
2, you are right, if geometry of camshaft lobes changed, I cannot adjust anything there
3, DoItMyself - I can take of valve cover and take macro pictures of everything there
4, filter has been changed with new official oil - no change
5, numbers - service measured these distances : for all exhaust valves 0.45 and for all intake valves 0.35 . Nothing else :-(

Ufffff, a lot of work is waiting for me :-) But - I think that service tried to make some money with their verdict about whole head restoration...when I asked them "so what is really wrong there?" - they cannot answer me...but of course they mentioned two times price 400 Euro... :-)
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Old 20-03-2019   #35
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Bhutan 
Lightbulb Re: Injector or valve clearance?

So they've adjusted for the future wear and set the clearances a bit too high.
That strategy should work theoretically in most engines, but not in your Grande.
Mine was "ticking" hot too when I've set "lash" too high ("only" like +0,03 to +0,05 off).
Change everything to recommended value (exhaust 0,40 mm, intake 0,30 mm)...
Then you/we will judge "what's next".
For now it's still a "mystery meat" engine.

Other problems are still potentially possible (lobes wear, oil starvation, VVT, injectors, fuel vapors solenoid, etc.).

PS
Did you ordered literally "valve clearance adjustment" without mentioning "ticking" issue to them?
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Last edited by GrandePunto PL; 20-03-2019 at 15:26. Reason: FIRE in Grande/EVO is very sensitive to lash, and oil pressure.
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Old 20-03-2019   #36
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Re: Injector or valve clearance?

Worn down cam lobs .. won't cause additional noise (unless it's lack of lubrication ), will just loose power higher in rev range.


I think i also saw something else interesting in the video with MES: Coil charge time on cylinder 4 is a bit smaller than the others, might be a good idea to check the spark plugs, and even move them (spark plug and coil) around, i'd swap from cylinder 4 to cylinder 1. Then check MES again ..see if the times moved to cylinder 1.
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Old 20-03-2019   #37
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Re: Injector or valve clearance?

I showed them that ticking sound, there was also mechanic who should work on my car. So we talked about it. Regarding valve clearances on cold, as I remember it shoul be 0.5 for ex and 0.4 for in. But in this I fully trust this mechanic from authorised FIAT service. He didn't mentioned something like head rebuild as they told me in previous no-name service... He did clearances + diag + short drive + cleaning old oil in head and said that cam and everything there is good.
Regarding MES - today I'll make new diag measurement during ride on hot engine + measure charts. I saw also higher knock sensor voltage value for cylinder 4
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Last edited by Rado77; 20-03-2019 at 18:32.
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Old 20-03-2019   #38
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Those are photos from authorised FIAT service
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Old 20-03-2019   #39
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And these are from todays MES diag during hot trip. You can see little bit higher voltage from knock sensor for 4-th cylinder
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Old 21-03-2019   #40
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Re: Injector or valve clearance?

That engine had a tough life....but the cams look OK...at least in that tiny photo.
I suspect you have sludge in the variable cam gear... are you sure there isn't any noise from it?.. it can still cause some weird resonance noise at certain RPM.

For now:
Check/swap around the coils and plugs (let me know if you want help, i'm free this weekend, and bored).
I wouldn't be surprised if you find:

(you get this with prolonged oil changes and running the car mostly in town)
Or any other combination:
https://dannysengineportal.com/spark-plug-color/

In the near future... just use the car and make the oil changes sooner. At least the next 2-3 changes, do them at ~5000km.... From that picture i'd also use some engine-flush product... maybe some cheap oil to do an additional flush (drain old oil, put in new cheap oil and filter then take the car for a drive ~50-100km .... then add engine flush product idle the car as per instructions on bottle, then drain and replace with the good quality oil and filter).

If it's piston slap or rod knock... the engine won't survive long (maybe 0-1000km) ... so don't worry about it.
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Last edited by aurick86; 21-03-2019 at 10:42.
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Old 21-03-2019   #41
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Re: Injector or valve clearance?

Thanks Aurick86 ;-) I changed sparkplugs to original NGK directly when I bought that car. I checked them after 1000 km and looks fine - electrodes like white coffee. Engine flush is good idea - especialy when service cleaned old oil sludge from camshaft area, a lot of "new" dirt should come back to oil pan and so on. And small particles should go through electomagnetic valve sifter inside, and through ways directly to variator chambers. I know I know... Yes and regarding spark plugs whose were there when I bought this car, they were also NGKs in good condition (with little bit bigger gap, I think they must be there 2-3 years).
But you gave me very good idea regarding variator...I can focus on it this weekend (plus I'll measure injector's resistance when hot, maybe I remove whole ramp, crank engine and check how they are spraying to piece of paper... ), just to be sure that spark and injection are 100%
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Last edited by Rado77; 21-03-2019 at 13:56.
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Old 21-03-2019   #42
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Cool Re: Injector or valve clearance?

1. This topic (like many others on this forum) should end at page 1.
Correct suggestions were made there.

2. Now, to fix previous owner laziness (or pseudo "savings" on oil changes), oil pan should be dropped and cleaned mechanically. If you use "engine flush" now, you risk oil pump inlet clogging. No one knows "what's in there" (in your engine).

3. Plus, you still have valves to be re-adjusted. Professional, certified, whatever, mechanics make mistakes too (that's a classic one for experienced guys - when you are so "sure" you know the proper numbers without double-checking, it will bite you someday). Values like 0,5 (exhaust) and 0,4 (intake) are typical for many other 8V Fiat engines, but not Grande (it must be 0,40 and 0,30 mm respectively), that's why this guy took it for granted. No big deal, just fix it.
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Old 21-03-2019   #43
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Re: Injector or valve clearance?

Oil pan was cleaned from inside. So if he measured for exhaust 0.45, and must be 0.4, I need shimm 0.05 thicker than current right?
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Last edited by Rado77; 21-03-2019 at 16:41.
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Old 21-03-2019   #44
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Thumbs up Re: Injector or valve clearance?

There's one more tiny issue...
He probably checked clearance with "standard" (most common) gauges, in the 0,05 mm increment/steps.
This is (may be) a bit "too big" when your engine is still misbehaving after such adjustment (assuming other problems are/will be solved, like lubrication & filtration + VVT).
Let's cut it in half (which will be, "by coincidence", imperial one "thou", 0,001 inch).
In imperial world, many engines have fairly tight tolerances like 1 or 2 thou total (not "plus and minus") for some reason.
Of course, there are tolerances on shims too (some are "right on the money", others "way" off, like 0,005-0,010 mm), so it doesn't make practical sense to chase it like crazy (but one must try).

Decreasing the oil amount in this engine was a bad idea (design flaw). "Ecology" (engine is less polluting when it gets to the operating temperature quicker). Older 1,4 8V FIRE had over 4 litres in some models (first generation Tipo as an example), then about 3,5 L in Uno, now it's 2,6-2,7 liters range...what's next in the future: 2,0 L ?
Filtration is a big deal too (as important as oil itself). Paper in-line filter is "good enough"...until it's not.
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Last edited by GrandePunto PL; 21-03-2019 at 19:09. Reason: FIRE engines are oil flow sensitive, especially nowadays.
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Old 22-03-2019   #45
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Re: Injector or valve clearance?

I have to separate both issues. Maybe they are not related together. So biggest issue is "plastic bucket" sound during engine load (rod bearing, piston slap...). This is happening also on cold engine. And 2nd (minor) is that ticking once engine gets operational tempetature.
For now the biggest issue for me is that "bucket full of sand" noise during engine load. I cannot hear it when I rev up engine on neutral. Only during engine load. If engine load is bigger (1st gear, going to hill), sound is louder. Looks that its engine related, not to flying wheel or gearbox. I'll make some video...
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