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Old 04-03-2019   #16
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Re: Injector or valve clearance?

Interesting noise. Of course listening to a recording on my laptop is very different from being there in the flesh with the "MK1 ear'ole" but it doesn't sound like a vvt problem to me - usually more "clunky". Injectors make a noise more like this but usually more sharply "ticky" - if you know what I mean? Have you tried pulling injector connectors, one at a time? If it's an injector then it should shut up when you pull it's connector plug. I don't think you will do any ecu damage by doing this - I've had engines running with damaged wiring/plugs which, when repaired, ran fine on all cylinders again - but if you do this it's at your own risk! Of course that cylinder will stop firing so the engine will run unevenly whilst you have the connector plug disconnected and, almost certainly a fault code will be set which will later have to be erased.

Listening to both your first recording and this second one have you noticed how it comes and goes a bit? The ticking noise is not always the same is it? As you say the cam followers on these engines are solid with adjusting shims. Cam followers are designed to rotate in their bores as the cam lobe operates them so that wear is equalized. (if the follower did not rotate then the same surface on the follower would be rubbed by the same parts of the cam lobe every time it was operated and wear would rapidly develop).

Now imagine the cam follower (possibly cam lobe too) with localized damage. As the follower slowly rotates in it's guide the maximum wear areas will only sometimes be lined up. So when the worn/damaged surfaces are lined up the ticking will be loud. When relatively undamaged surfaces are working together the noise will be much less or, maybe even not audible.

So, if I were a betting man, which I learned years ago is a mug's game, I would have the cam cover off and look very carefully at the cam followers. Unfortunately when the noise is loud like this, I will be surprised if it can be rectified simply by re-shiming the valve clearances as I would be expecting to see scoring, or damage of some sort, to the surface of the cam lobe.

However, as there's nothing to stop me being optimistic, I hope you find I'm wrong and that it turns out to be something easily and cheaply repaired.

Good luck and kind regards
Jock
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Old 04-03-2019   #17
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Re: Injector or valve clearance?

Hi Jock . Thanx for your answer! ;-) Yes I unplugged injectors one by one on idle . Ticking was still there, so it really looks like valve clearance. I'll give it to authorized service for adjusting. It costs appr 70 euro including price of their work and new cam cover gasket. I discussed it also on our local Slovakia forum and guys said the same - valve adjustment. So thank you once more ;-)
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Old 04-03-2019   #18
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Re: Injector or valve clearance?

Oh, Just realized I said nothing about your knock sensor. From what I know of them a knock sensor is a piezoelectric wafer which generates a small voltage/current in direct response to vibration, the bigger the vibration the bigger it's output. You can make it "jump" by cracking a spanner or small hammer on the block beside where it's fitted. The ticking sound you have is bound to be producing vibrations which are not normally there and, if it's cam related, then it will be occurring once every complete firing cycle (2 crankshaft revs). So it will be experienced at the same frequency as the firing cycle. If it happens to be in synchronization with No 4 cylinder firing then it might explain the large reading for no 4 as it will be added to the normal signal generated when 4 fires? You'll only really know if you check again after you've sorted out whatever is doing the "ticking"

Please do let us all know how it turns out won't you.
Kind regards
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Last edited by Pugglt Auld Jock; 04-03-2019 at 20:43.
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Old 04-03-2019   #19
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Re: Injector or valve clearance?

I cannot say if knock signal from 4 is matching ticking sound...but what I could do is measurement from knock sensor on cold engine, where's no ticking... I'll inform you about progress ;-) Anyway car is going good, acceleration is good, really quick starts, eveything ok...just this crazy ticking after reaching operational temperature
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Old 07-03-2019   #20
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Re: Injector or valve clearance?

[QUOTE=Rado77;4468919just this crazy ticking after reaching operational temperature[/QUOTE]

If anything a bigger valve clearance (worn shims/lifters) would make it noisier at a cold start, then as the engine heats up the parts would expand and close the gap...making it less noisy.

And of course... in a good functioning engine, over time valve clearance becomes smaller... not bigger.
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Last edited by aurick86; 07-03-2019 at 08:01.
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Old 07-03-2019   #21
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Re: Injector or valve clearance?

Yes it's strange...but I don't know history of that car...maybe someone did something with shims - somebody who does't understand whole system correctly...I really don't know. But I have to be sure that celarances are OK and I can sleep good :-) If this check/repair don't help and ticking will be still there, I'll buy new Magnetti Marelli injector from E-bay. Few minutes ago I wrote e-mail to authorized service for order to reapiar that clearances. I'll inform about progress
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Old 08-03-2019   #22
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Lightbulb Re: Injector or valve clearance?

Order/request also compression test. "Just in case" (to know condition of the engine better).
Ask them the numbers (compression, pressures and valve clearances, shim thicknesses), and post here.
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Last edited by GrandePunto PL; 08-03-2019 at 08:21. Reason: Gimme the NUMBERS.
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Old 08-03-2019   #23
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Yes I'll do it ;-) I wanted to do compression test by myself, but I don't have manometer :-( But maybe better is to check it directly after valve clearance adjustment. I'll tell them
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Old 08-03-2019   #24
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Re: Injector or valve clearance?

Did you have the alternator belt removed? does it sound the same?
A bad bearing in the alternator, or any of the pulleys, or ac compressor will make a similar noise.
I've sen't you a PM, i'm in Bratislava, so if you're close, i can take a look... 2 pairs of eyes
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Old 08-03-2019   #25
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Re: Injector or valve clearance?

Hi Aurick86 - yes I saw your PM ;-) Yes, I'm from Bratislava & we can meet of course. That sound was before & after replacing belts. I tried to hear that sound with screwdriver also on alternator and clima compressor but it's going from the top of engine, somewhere from the middle of camshaft and probably little bit closer to injectors. Today I replaced spark cables one by one with new one, but ticking was still there. What I did not - ohm measurement of injector pins, but definately I need to check those valve clearances first (to be sure that HW part of engine is ok, because I plan to use this car next 5 years). It's used car and I don't know it's history , only 2 records from authorised service about front window and throttle cleaning. I never had Fiat cars so I cannot use my senses to tell if "this engine sound is normal, and that not..." :-) I fixed a lot of small issues like exhaust gasket leaking, new oils, throttle cleaning, new sparks and so on. It's a long story :-)
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Old 09-03-2019   #26
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Re: Injector or valve clearance?

Agreed, have the shims replaced... it is after all just part of the planned maintenance of the engine.

Another trick to locating engine noise: use a piece of hose, put one end to the year the other move it around. (i used this to locate boost leaks)

Let me know when you get it back, after the service.
We can meet-up somewhere for 15-20 minutes, and you can listen to my car running (on petrol and LPG) ... get an idea of the injectors noise. The engine is running close to perfect...has the odd noise now and then but nothing out of the ordinary..

The other thing ... in the video... kinda' sounds like one of the cam lobes isn't getting enough oil.... had problems with a previous engine. But if it is this .. noise should go away for a few seconds(10-30) if you rev it to 4-5k rpm..(so that the oil in the head can spray all over).
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Old 12-03-2019   #27
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Re: Injector or valve clearance?

Valve clearance repair booked on this thursday. Car should be there maybe few days if they don't have concrete shims on stock...
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Old 14-03-2019   #28
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Re: Injector or valve clearance?

Update from service - yes, few shimms must be replaced + dirt on variator's electromagnetic valve. Looks that previous owner didnt change oil. Mechanics were surprised how much I know about engine repairs, FIRE specifics and diagnostics - also thanks to you guys! Main technician said that he took some pictures of camshaft...I hope he will send it to me...
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Last edited by Rado77; 14-03-2019 at 22:32.
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Old 19-03-2019   #29
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Re: Injector or valve clearance?

So car is at home, but no change, ticking is still there. Mechanic told me about possible piston slap. Can piston slap make noise like mine ??? What I saw on YouTube, piston slap produce different noise than my "high ticking".
Plus is absolutely depending on engine temp. On cold engine there's no ticking. During warming to operational temp ticking is coming. But on hot idle, when I open hood, ticking goes away after few minutes, as engine little bit colds. It's really tricky...
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Last edited by Rado77; 19-03-2019 at 20:24.
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Old 20-03-2019   #30
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Re: Injector or valve clearance?

Quote Originally Posted by Rado77 View Post
Today's video of sound on warm engine + MES diagnostics data...maybe you can tell anything what you hear or see. For me is interesting for example Knock sensor signal for 4th valve - it's higher than for other valves...is it normal?
https://youtu.be/JaKQJaA9xOI
I had another look at this video, what i saw the cam desired position was -2 degrees and cam position was 0 degrees.
I'm not sure what is acceptable on these engines... or maybe MES just doesn't read those values correctly.

I'm still not sure it's actually that noisy.
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