Technical Electrical Gremlin thread further explanation pls?

[Lucy in the sky]

Hi all

I'm new & the first to admit I don't know my way around a car engine. I bought my Fiat Panda several weeks ago which was tidy condition low mileage for year but im losing confidence fast due to similar random non start issues reported by other members. Twist the key , dashboard lights up then nothing - might start again in a few hours or day after ( hoping it will start tomorrow) Put a full charge on battery 2 weeks ago so probably not that.

I've carefully read the Electrical Gremlin thread and my compliments to Andy - I reckon even myself as rank novice can follow his recommended steps tomorrow when it's light. But I have two questions on this -

Disconnecting battery terminals which may reset ( whatever its called) when not charging battery is it necessary to disconnect & leave overnight? If not how long for?

( I know you guys are going to howl at this one) final step in electrical gremlin thread which shows you how to attach negative cable to engine + cautions in another thread that engine off when you do this . I understand this is to try and investigate problem with earth - but how if engine is off - what signs are you looking out for ?

Much appreciate if anyone can expand upon above?

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi.
No howelling here


Ok. The non.start of your panda is PROBABLY relatively simple.

Good idea to rule out the dodgy earth cable scenario.
A cable attatched to battery neg.. and a lump of engine metal.. sorted.

Ok. The 'other bit'..

The 12 volt supply from the battery
keeps the cars brain : ECU fed with info . Some of which it 'learns'as you drive.

Disconnecting power from battery makes it 'forget this learnt stuff'

And it then relies on its preprogrammed info.. from the original factory build.

Hope that is a bit clearer.

Couple of questions;

Have you got 2 keys.. does the padlock.. or key.. symbol.. light up then go out?

Does the battery light go dim as you attempt to turn engine over on the starter??


Charlie

 

[Lucy in the sky]

Hi.
No howelling here


Ok. The non.start of your panda is PROBABLY relatively simple.

Good idea to rule out the dodgy earth cable scenario.
A cable attatched to battery neg.. and a lump of engine metal.. sorted.

Ok. The 'other bit'..

The 12 volt supply from the battery
keeps the cars brain : ECU fed with info . Some of which it 'learns'as you drive.

Disconnecting power from battery makes it 'forget this learnt stuff'

And it then relies on its preprogrammed info.. from the original factory build.

Hope that is a bit clearer.

Couple of questions;

Have you got 2 keys.. does the padlock.. or key.. symbol.. light up then go out?

Does the battery light go dim as you attempt to turn engine over on the starter??


Charlie

thanks for your extra help - "

I think battery might be struggling now but that could be my fault for keep going out and trying it rather than the original cause ? The dashboard lights on speed / revs dial etc came on earlier arent now - all I see is the warning signals ie oil etc on bottom right . Same thing happened few days ago then it started two hours later no problem .

Battery Light - cant say i noticed it go dim on successful starts , just turns off with the others.

Key issue- only came with one key and it's not the main one because won't operate central locking , can't see a padlock warning light

Good idea to rule out the dodgy earth cable scenario.A cable attatched to battery neg.. and a lump of engine metal.. sorted" -...........,,,so you simply do this as described with engine off and disconnect again & see if it worked.

Disconnect battery power sounds straightforward Will do both above tomorrow

Its flipping typical that I'm currently on 'red alert' for Grannies taxi special 24/7 as my Daughter in law & is expecting her first baby on 22nd December & I'm down to drive them to maternity suite 15 miles away. ( still look on the bright side at least I can have a glass or three of red tonight as I'm now off duty)

Thanks - will report back tomorrow

 

[Lucy in the sky]

thanks for your extra help - "

I think battery might be struggling now but that could be my fault for keep going out and trying it rather than the original cause ? The dashboard lights on speed / revs dial etc came on earlier arent now - all I see is the warning signals ie oil etc on bottom right . Same thing happened few days ago then it started two hours later no problem .

Battery Light - cant say i noticed it go dim on successful starts , just turns off with the others.

Key issue- only came with one key and it's not the main one because won't operate central locking , can't see a padlock warning light

Good idea to rule out the dodgy earth cable scenario.A cable attatched to battery neg.. and a lump of engine metal.. sorted" -...........,,,so you simply do this as described with engine off and disconnect again & see if it worked.

Disconnect battery power sounds straightforward Will do both above tomorrow

Its flipping typical that I'm currently on 'red alert' for Grannies taxi special 24/7 as my Daughter in law & is expecting her first baby on 22nd December & I'm down to drive them to maternity suite 15 miles away. ( still look on the bright side at least I can have a glass or three of red tonight as I'm now off duty)

Thanks - will report back tomorrow

Ps - I was pretty close to howelling when it happened again today. i was so frustrated it immediately made me sympathise with Basil Fawlty thrashing his non starter car with a large tree branch! Showing my age their but it's such a classic that most people will know it ? . If not google the clip it's hilarious - reckon all of us 'random non starter' Punto owners have felt like that at some point.

 

[Bernievarian]

Hi Lucy wherever with Diamonds ;-)

let me try to explain it in simple wording…

When charging a battery, it is ALWAYS better to disconnect it from the car (negative port is enough) so a potential voltage peak from the charger when it turns ON would not dammage the car's electronic (which are VERY sensitive).

The second effect will be, as Charlie describbed, the erasure of (some) learnt parameters in the Engine Control Unit (ECU); that will restore factory settings and may help the car running better.

When doing the 'earth cable stuff' what we are looking for is a difference (starting wise) WITH an WITHOUT the by-pass cable installed.

Assuming the battery is in goog condition...

Case 1:
- hard to start (cranks slowly) without the jump cable
- good start with jump cable connected
Means the original earth cable has run bad (either the cable or its connection)

Case 2:
- hard to start (cranks slowly) without the jump cable
- hard to start (cranks slowly) with the jump cable connected
Means the original earth cable is probably good, the issue may be located @ the positive cable or @ the cranking motor (starter)

If you're not confident with car's electric, don't play the wizzard and bring the car to the local garage, they'll check it for you, peace of mind is worth a few notes ...

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)

 

[Lucy in the sky]

Hi thanks for input - I appreciate it

Latest update -the battery is almost flat now but im uncertain if this just a secondary issue due keep trying to turn it over. Last time this happened about a week ago after 4 mile round trip to supermarket called at a friends 10 mins later wouldn't start. I went back 2 hours later as wanted to place note on windscreen to apologise for blocking someone's garage & started first time! Which suggests something other than battery issue (??) I am guilty of car only making short trips lately as I'm worried about getting stranded - I know this drains battery. I don't know how old battery is & it did get overnight full charge 2 weeks back.

I'm stuck until early evening now awaiting battery charger - I'm feeling very tempted to order a new battery online so it will arrive by tomorrow but without having battery checked which I don't have the gizmo i could be wasting money better spent elsewhere.

The Earth Strap thing makes sense to me now as do other suggestions

As for being careful with electrics etc - if I didn't feel confident I understood it I wouldn't touch it . The step by step photos make all the difference & I'm surprised that I do feel ok with it. Read other posts & there is a lot of well written advice that can be understood by the novice on this site which is far better than most - there are some posts that might as well be written in Mandarin - but that's fair enough as jobs run from basic to skilled.

Thoughts on ordering new battery anyone or make do with overnight charge again??


My urgency to get it sorted is due to worrying about my taxi duties to Matrrnity suite although due date is 22nd ( my money is on Xmas Day) .

 

[Bernievarian]

Hi Lucy,

haven't read my post regarding cold starts (thks to Charlie for updating) ? It contains some stuf about the battery.
As you admit yourself, short trips aren't good friends for batteries, specially in winter when a lot of electricity is drained by various consumers (fan, defrost, lights…) and therefore is not available to charge the already weakened (by cold) battery :-(
Let it receive a full overnight charge before spending your money on Something you maybe Don't need …

BTW, re-reading your post where you said light comes on then nothing … make me think about a bad keyswitch. That would be a complete different story !

Cheers, Bernie

 

[Lucy in the sky]

Tell me it's not a really expensive story - I was a little concerned myself that the ignition switch feels a bit wobbly & i was only given one key which doesnt control central locking. I was literally 'gob smacked ' to discover FIAT charge £300 for replacement - how do they justify that? Read since cheaper alternatives available but.

Feeling bit wobbly myself come to that - my gas hob was condemned today due to irreparable minor but of course dangerous gas leak not sure if my wobble is due to noxious fumes or replacement & installation costs made me feel noxious.

Battery has been on a low charge now for a few hours and it's nowhere near reaching full charge , I am trying to be hopeful this means the battery at fault as its a cheap and quick fix. Tommorow will tell ......

 

[aurick86]

... Twist the key , dashboard lights up then nothing

What does nothing mean?????
1. Does it crank.. but just doesn't fire?
2. You turn the key.. and NOTHING happens? I.E. engine doen't turn over, there is no noise... nothing.


When first turning the key to ACC... do you see the MIL????

 

[Bernievarian]

Tell me it's not a really expensive story - I was a little concerned myself that the ignition switch feels a bit wobbly & i was only given one key which doesnt control central locking. I was literally 'gob smacked ' to discover FIAT charge £300 for replacement - how do they justify that? Read since cheaper alternatives available but.

I'm afraid that'd be the price to pay @ a dealer workshop.
You'll probably find a cheaper way by ebay and your local garage.
The cheapest approach would be to by-pass the cranking part of the key switch with a push-button but that requires some skills ...

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)

 

[Lucy in the sky]

Hi - no update - not even managed to re-fit battery as suffering bad case of 'man-flu' will report back when feeling better

 

[Bernievarian]

Be positive Lucy, better being sick now than when Baby's born or you couldn't pamper him/her ;-)

Cheers, Bernie

 

[Lucy in the sky]

Good point Bernie! I'm pleasantly surprised , refitted battery after charging & started first time. I'm not certain this is problem solved as it doesn't explain the fact that it wouldn't start about 10 days ago (before most recent non start) and then started a few hours later. Also as this is 2nd time in 3 weeks battery has been removed and charged I think I should buy a new battery. If this solves the non start problem I will be delighted. If not i will try the steps as per advice received. Guess it's fingers crossed wait and see! Appreciate your help gentlemen

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

What an interesting thread you've stirred up here Lucy. Every time I've been about to post someone else has come up with a similar idea!

I've just read it all through from the start again and there's one thing jumping out at me which is that time you had it parked across someone's garage and it started after you left it for a while? To me, if the battery was faulty/end of life, it would be unlikely to do this? So I think you would be best to definitively eliminate the battery as a possible source of the problem. Of course somewhere like Halfords/Kwik Fit/etc will have a heavy discharge tester which will do this but I would be tempted to consult a specialist auto electrician because a) he/she will have much less of a vested interest in selling you a new battery, and b) To an auto electrician, a task like this is at the "elementary" end of the spectrum and, if the fault is something simple, he/she will most likely spot it within minutes.

There is a fairly full proof way to check the battery performance yourself though. Having fully charged your battery and let it rest for about an hour or so (this lets the plates inside the battery "equalise" - for want of a non technical explanation) Park the car facing a wall, maybe 5 to 6 feet away, or other vertical surface which will "reflect" the headlights. Turn the headlights on, what do you see reflected in the wall? Are they nice and bright? - if so that's a good start. Now, with the gearbox in neutral and handbrake applied, (don't want to risk driving into the wall!) turn the ignition key and operate the starter motor. What should happen is that the headlights will dim a little and the starter will spin the engine quickly until it starts. The starter spinning quickly shows it to be in good condition with good electrical connections. The lights only dimming slightly shows that, despite the starter "hogging" most of the available electrical energy (can be around or upwards of 200 amps as it breaks the engine away from a stand still - a hundred or more times what the headlamps take) there is still enough to keep them bright.

However, from what you are saying, you may have a different result. So here are a few scenarios.
1) You've charged the battery successfully, and parked facing your chosen wall. The lights are reflecting brightly. You twist the key and nothing changes. The starter doesn't operate and the lights stay bright! - This would seem to be saying the battery is OK but there is a starter circuit problem. Could be the heavy duty cabling (seems to be a well known problem) or a bad earth. Could be the solenoid failing to activate the starter either because it is seized, or partially seized (clutch dust can do this), or the internal windings are damaged/open circuit, or there is no energising current reaching the solenoid (Ignition switch must be a major suspect if the wire hasn't fallen off/loose). Perhaps the starter motor brushes are stuck in their holders/guides or worn out so can't pass current to the armature but I think that less likely in your case as you have had some signs of life.

2) So, starting at the beginning again. Battery charged and rested. Sitting in the car looking at the lights reflecting in that darn'd wall again and you twist the key. Head lights dim greatly (I mean very noticeably or maybe even get so dim you think they've gone out). What's happening here is that the starter motor is hogging all the available current, to the exclusion of all else. - there's nothing left to power the lights. You may sometimes hear the solenoid chattering as well. The lights have gone out because the starter motor, especially when it's not spinning, has very little electrical resistance whereas the lighting circuit, by comparison, has much more resistance, so the electricity, which is always looking for the easiest way it can find to get to "earth" just rushes off through the starter windings, to earth. It's very likely, if you get this result - ie. headlights go out/dim severely - That your battery's goose is cooked!

This is all very basic testing - haven't even gone near a multimeter! - and not completely definitive but should give you a reasonable idea of roughly what's wrong - and more importantly it should let you be fairly sure as to whether your battery is the culprit. If you are going to pay someone to have a look at it I would be looking for an auto electrician or an independant Fiat specialist before a main agent (unless you have deep pockets) or an "unknown" small establishment. I, personally, would not get within even line of sight of a "Fast Fit" type setup unless you are a very lucky gambler, or masochist.

There's a lot more technical "stuff" which could be done but I think, if you try the above, you may get a good indication of what the problem is whilst, at the same time, doing no harm to your car. Of course, you'll appreciate I have to say, you try any of this at your own risk. I'm not there to help and I learned early on in life, that people can easily make the most horrendous mistakes if they lack experience.
Good luck and I hope you resolve it soon and at minimal cost. Kindest regards
Jock.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Oh dear! Sorry folks, showing my age again! Just popped down to the corner shop to get milk and realised that my "Nanny" Ibiza switches its headlights off when the starter is being operated - no doubt because it is fitted with such a marginal capacity battery that it couldn't cope! So, although my Boy has a Punto I seldom drive it in the dark and don't know if it has the same "smart" feature? Obviously if it puts the lights out when cranking all the above is of academic interest only.

 

[varesecrazy]

Im in the habit of minimising battery load.. so despite being FIAT for decades..

I still turn off headlights.
Depress clutch. Etc.. and YES.. I am even one of the strange people who employs a handbrake..
Saving my brake lights.. (and others retinas)

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Im in the habit of minimising battery load.. so despite being FIAT for decades..

I still turn off headlights.
Depress clutch. Etc.. and YES.. I am even one of the strange people who employs a handbrake..
Saving my brake lights.. (and others retinas)

Me too Charlie. Lights on last and off first. Same goes for rear screen, or any other load. Handbrake on when stopped and foot off the brake - You see so many blown brake light bulbs and I think it's the "foot on pedal" habit that causes it. I haven't had a seized cable in years either, but then I do keep them greased up at service time. Saving retinas, is it just me or do you think these LED brake lights are just too bright? Shudder to think what replacement costs of a full LED rear lamp cluster might be - My boy's Punto (side light LEDs only) was bad enough!

The only point I disagree on is the foot on clutch to start. As I've previously posted it worries me thinking what it might be doing to the crank thrust washers. Having said that though The Ibiza won't start without it's pedal being depressed and the latest addition to "the Fleet" - A Kia Rio 1.4 diesel - needs it's pedal depressed too as did the Chevy Tahoe we rented last summer when we went over to the U.S. for my niece's wedding. So someone has, I hope, been thinking about how to retain lubricant around the thrusts when the engine is stationary - or is modern lubricant just so good?

 

[varesecrazy]

I find a car you catch up with missing a brake light..
or even more so.. just down to the 'high level bar'

Will be 'driving on its brakes' .. a great warning to us all ..

Glad some progress is being made with 'Lucys' panda. Battery is always a relatively cheap test.. especially in a car that is an unknown.

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi - no update - not even managed to re-fit battery as suffering bad case of 'man-flu' will report back when feeling better

I hope you now are up to your busy week + .. best wishes to all



YOUR CAR.. what engine and year??

I thought it was a panda.. then a punto.. then a GP...

Charlie

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I find a car you catch up with missing a brake light..
or even more so.. just down to the 'high level bar'

Will be 'driving on its brakes' .. a great warning to us all ..

Glad some progress is being made with 'Lucys' panda. Battery is always a relatively cheap test.. especially in a car that is an unknown.

Sorry, off thread somewhat here but it fits with this post. Youngest son trained as a sign writer and started his own business a couple of years ago. doesn't quite make enough money to keep his ship afloat so drives delivery vans for Sainsburys to top the budget up. These vans are automatics. During our early summer visit to the 'States he insisted on driving the hire car for much of the time Chevy Tahoe - a Tank by any other name! Of course it was an auto box and I noticed, one day as he and his wife disappeared down the road on their way to "the mall" (an American place of torture) leaving Mrs Jock and self to look after "the nipper", that the brake lights were on all the time!

That evening, on our way to the "Sweet Frog" ice cream parlour I watched what he was doing. Bet you're way ahead of me! Yes, left foot braking! This seems to be a habit he's developed at the wheel of the delivery truck and he was completely unaware of it being a problem. I am not totally against LFB - rally and race car drivers are often "ambidextrous" in this respect - and if you only drive an automatic so get used to it and don't "ride" the pedal, but if you switch between auto and manual I believe it can lead to disaster in an emergency let alone, as in my youngster's case, early failure of brake light bulbs and linings.