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Old 04-03-2017   #31
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Re: ABS unavailable, tried most things, need help

I watched him bleed the entire system. The liquid i had in there was green, its now yellow and completely changed. Did 5 whole tubs using the 1 way valve thing. As for the wires i know theyre right. Its white to yellow and black to yellow/black. Ive checked and its right way around.

PS when they changed the bearing they didnt even take the pipes off so it shouldnt have needed bleeding at all. As it happens when i took it there there was a little too much fluid in there and it was the same whn i got it back, just above max
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Old 04-03-2017   #32
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Re: ABS unavailable, tried most things, need help

Btw @Aurick, thanks for the advice. If you can explain how the air would get in the system that would help me. To change the bearing he took off the caliper but didnt undo any of the brake lines. Im guessing that the only way air could get in is if there was a break in one of the seals, thats why i believed the guy when he mentioned the caliper leaking.

Could you also tell me how to bleed air from the master cylinder in case that is the problem please.
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Old 05-03-2017   #33
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Re: ABS unavailable, tried most things, need help

Best and easy way.. use a pressure brake bleeder.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gunson-Ezi...YAAOxyXDhScojU

It's a can/bottle with brake fluid.. that gets screw onto of the mater cylinder.
It gets connected to a pressure regulated air supply; a small amount of pressure is needed.. like ~0.3 bar.
Then the bleed nipples are unscrewed.. and the small pressure forces fluid through the pump, the abs unit, the lines, then the caliper.. and out.
If the pressure is to high the reservoir on the brake pump can jump off, or even crack.

Another system is the vacuum system

It just connects to the bleed nipple... loosen it .. and pull a little vacuum.. the fluid will be pulled through the system. No chance of cracking the fluid reservoir or having it jump off the pump.... but you can get false air in the line (air can sometimes let in the bleed nipple not from the caliper.. but through the threads of the nipple).

In some cases it it necessary to use the appropriate interface to start the ABS pump while bleeding to get some of the air from the pump (it's almost never the case.. but i did have to do it when i replaced my brake pump)

This systems are a lot safer that classic bleeding, because the in the brake pump there will always be a part of the cylinder that is never used in normal operation ( towards the bottom of the pump), that part will sometimes be not as smooth as the regularly used part.. and sometimes even have a bit of rust. When bleeding, pumping..pressing the piston through hat part of the cylinder, the seals on the pump's piston can get damaged ... leading to either air getting in the pump..leaks.. or even the pump slowly loosing pressure when brakes are applied.

I did have one brake pump fail this way (probably because of classical bleeding... when somebody pumps the brakes and somebody else loosens the bleeding nipple).... when I would press hard on the brake pedal it was ok; but when i pressed slowly gently the pedal would slowly go to the floor. In my case i did not have any air in the system.
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Last edited by aurick86; 05-03-2017 at 10:31.
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Old 05-03-2017   #34
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Re: ABS unavailable, tried most things, need help

Thats what mine is doing, going slowly to the floor i mean. Its funny because the brakes actually work, theres just a lot of travel in them.

Im happy to get an easy bleed system but my question is how did the air originally get in? You say the bleed screw thread for example but the brakes worked perfectly after he did the bearing but there was a squeak. I took it back, he took the caliper off whole, noticed the dust cover thing was touching so bent that back a little then replaced it. He never touched the bleed screw at that point or even when changing the bearing, no pipes were loosened, not even the cap from the abs fluid/

He thinks there may be a leak in the caliper but i find that hard to believe. My guess would be that when he lifted the caliper off the pipe gets bent back as the caliper is lifted over the disc, if i had to guess id say a small brake in that pipe is more likely than the caliper where it was kinked or something. The problem is its letting air in (when he bled them later the air comes out, you let it stand for a few minutes then bleeding again gets more air out) but no fluid leaks out so i can see the leak.

With all that info would you still say its just a bleeding problem?
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Old 05-03-2017   #35
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Re: ABS unavailable, tried most things, need help

After talking to a few mechanics etc there seems to be 3 possible problems to this. Firstly that the bearings are loose (unlikely as it was pressed in properly and looked fine, also wheel doesnt shake back and fore). 2nd that there may be air trapped (as Aurick said), apparently if its too hard to get out the normal way its suggest to do a reverse bleed meaning use a syringe, remove the fluid lid, loosen the bleed screw and inject fluid into the scre which then pushes all the air up into the open reservoir.

The last one which will be the most expensive is a reversed seal in the master cylinder. No way to fix this, just need to replace it so this is my last option. Apparently its very unlikely for it to happen and if it does the brakes are supposed not to work at all where mine do currently work but it just has a lot of travel. With mine if i pump them they get more solid but drive a few minutes and theres a lot of travel again.

The garage is going to double check the bearings tomorrow then try and bleed them again. To be honest i have little faith in this garage now as it was up to me to find these possible solutions. All they said was they were stumped and actually had me call a mechanic friend of mine as they had no idea what could be the problem.

The abs light has finally come off, just got to wait now and see if it comes back on or stays off this time.
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Old 05-03-2017   #36
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Re: ABS unavailable, tried most things, need help

Since you have butchered the wiring get a auto sparky to replace the wire between the abs sensor and the abs control unit....

My guess is high resistance somewhere between the abs modulator multiplug and the sensor


As for the green fluid I hazard a guess the service schedule has not been adhered to (2 yearly changes incl clutch)

The leaky rear slave is going to be another issue and require another cylinder or caliper
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Old 05-03-2017   #37
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Re: ABS unavailable, tried most things, need help

Thanks Andy but as i say that part may be sortd now. Even if it isnt that definitely isnt the problem with the spongy brakes, thats something else. If the abs light does come back on i will definitely get that part done by an electrician
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Old 06-03-2017   #38
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Re: ABS unavailable, tried most things, need help

Hi Basil,

no doubt here: spongy brakes getting harder when pumping IS air in the system. The only time after initial bleeding at factory that one need to bleed a system is when an intervention is done on it. If a complete flush is done (recommended every second year) properly it doesn't need bleeding either. By properly I mean performed by a pro, using pro's tooling and equipment, i.e pressurized brake fluid reservoir...

Air entering the system: almost impossible if you don't see brake fluid leak(s) ! The fluid in the system is compressed at pretty high pressure vs the little 1 bar of atmosphere. Even when releasing the pedal the fluid is pressurized by the brake springs (drums) or internal sealer ring (disk) to return to the reservoir.

When not activated, the ABS does nothing, it's just a pass-through device, no difficulty here to bleed with the standard method (at brakes bleeder), one doesn't need to losen ANY pipe on the ABS distributor nor on the master cylinder !

My flushing method:
- starting with (say) green fluid in the reservoir, empty it to the bottom and fill with red fluid (or recommended fluid if of a visible color difference.
- install the pressuring cap (I modified one from scrap with a tyre valve) and give it a 1/2 bar of compressed air
- clean the R-R bleeder, install the piping and the empty bottle on the bleeder, losen it untill you see the new fluid color arriving in the collecting bottle then shut the bleeder.
- do the same for RL, FR and FL bleeders.
- You will have to check the fluid level and pressurization time to time !!

Once done, start over with recommended oil if you did not use the right one (for color difference).

If you're brave you can also (instead) air-flush the system:
- remove fluid from reservoir
- install the cap and pressurize (1/2 bar)
- install piping and collecting can at RR wheel, open bleeder until air comes out, shut off bleeder.
- do the same on RL, FR, FL wheels
Once done, remove pressure, fill with fluid and start over until pure fluid (no bubles) is seen at piping connected to bleeder...

I found those methods better than the vacuum or one way valve one because with suction some air can come in by the losen bleeder, initiating a false positive air in circuit diagnostic.

Any car with poor maintenance or put in bad hands will soon or later show various problems so don't blame your GP for that. Even a Jaguar needs good care or will fail as well (BTW I've never seen a Jaguar in a back-street garage ;-)

GP's are equiped with BOSCH ABS (German technology) possibly a BOSCH ECU... FIAT is the inventor of common-rail injection engines (used woldwide) and his FPT factories provide engines and gearboxes to many car makers...

Regards, Bernie
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Last edited by Bernievarian; 06-03-2017 at 08:59.
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Old 06-03-2017   #39
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Re: ABS unavailable, tried most things, need help

Well, took it to another garage and it seems to be sorted, it needed another half turn of the hub nut which was loose enough to allow a bit of wobble. As for the abs light its been off 2 days now, fingers crossed it stays that way. Thanks to everyone for all their help, very much appreciated. Being a driving instructor means your car off the road equals no income.
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Old 07-03-2017   #40
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Re: ABS unavailable, tried most things, need help

Half a turn !? and suggesting the caliper got a leak !? not really a recommended address...
Is you car equipped with dual drivers pedal set ? That could be a potential source of air intake (maybe) ...

Regards, Bernie
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Old 07-03-2017   #41
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Re: ABS unavailable, tried most things, need help

Quote Originally Posted by basil1492 View Post
Well, took it to another garage and it seems to be sorted, it needed another half turn of the hub nut which was loose enough to allow a bit of wobble...

I wanted to mention this, a wobble in the hub (or in the brake disks) can cause a spongy pedal feel while driving. (reason being that as the disk rotates it pushes the piston back like another 0.5-1mm... when you then press the pedal the piston in the caliper needs to travel the extra distance =>spongy /soft brakes)

But not while stationary with engine ON.
after 1 pedal.. the brake should be pretty firm and not feel spongy after.
Likes Bernievarian liked this post
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Old 07-03-2017   #42
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Re: ABS unavailable, tried most things, need help

Make sense !!
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Old 07-03-2017   #43
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Re: ABS unavailable, tried most things, need help

Thanks both for al the help, the advice was much appreciated. Abs light has stayed off so far and brakes were much better today so all good so far
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