onboard said:

Hi Guys, just a quick update - Fiat Customer Care now have complaint logged and will let me know in 48hrs what they think. I do know they called the garage today but the service manager was not in the branch.

I will wait patiently to see how it goes.

Click to expand...

I should imagine you should have some degree of success with Fiat UK (at least a contribution to the repair) unless theyve totally lost the plot, due to the following:

*Youve owned several Fiats before.
*If this problem is handled well, you could well buy alot more in future.
*The cars are driven by many people who could also buy Fiats after passing their tests due to familiarity from learning to drive in one.

On a side note however, it was mentioned in one of the reliability serveys (like Driver Power) that in all responses for the Grande Punto, not a single fault was reported with the transmission.

That's not to say it's unheard of on other Fiat models.

Best of luck with it anyway.

So really Brian, you haven't come on here to contribute anything to the forum, you have just come on here to get evidence that supports your view and no doubt you have told Fiat UK that you are posting on here their response. If that is so, good luck, but dont pretend you are doing this for anyone else but yourself. Just one question though, why arent your dealer offering to pay for your gearbox and argue with Fiat in their time, after all if you wanted to reject the vehicles this would be to the dealer that supplied them or the finance company (if they are on finance) not Fiat.

well im glad ive seen this, not read it all though lol. would take me days lmao. but i have got my gp s2 1.4 16v booked in the garage for this friday gfor them to look at the gears agen !!!! it went in about 3month ago with a oil leak from the gearbox. but before i took it in it had trouble selecting reverse and 1st and 2nd and after the reapir it was the same now it has a problem with the 3rd gear aswell as the 1st, 2nd and reverse.
1st grinds in sometimes,
2nd is difficult to engage,
3rd it grabbing or throwing out,
reverse wont always go in.

i got stuck in a cul-de-sac about 2 week ago and 3 men had to push my car back so i could get on my way. when i spoke to my dealer they told me that my car ahdnt done enough miles and that it would have to wear in i have had 3 GP's now and not one of them have had trouble selecting gears, but this is the second one to of had a gearbox oil leak

My colleuge at work today was saying that if the gear box oil was low with out me knowing (due to the leak) there could be internal wear of the gears which the dealer would nt of picked up on. ( i work in a garage )

hopefully they will be able to tell me what is wrong with it this time , instead of telling me my gearbox has to run in ...

NumanR said:

So really Brian, you haven't come on here to contribute anything to the forum, you have just come on here to get evidence that supports your view and no doubt you have told Fiat UK that you are posting on here their response. If that is so, good luck, but dont pretend you are doing this for anyone else but yourself. Just one question though, why arent your dealer offering to pay for your gearbox and argue with Fiat in their time, after all if you wanted to reject the vehicles this would be to the dealer that supplied them or the finance company (if they are on finance) not Fiat.

Click to expand...

My oh my, based on several replies I have seen elsewhere on the forum I not surprised at this reply. I think many Forum users who are not short sighted and oblivious to FIAT faults would say that this post has contributed quite a bit to the forum.

I am well aware that many of today's goods and services may have faults or problems and I am sure many people on here would agree with me that it is more important how the faults are dealt with by way of a quality customer service that can make all the difference as to how we feel about the faults.

I recall reading that Merecedes may even have serious fault issues with some vehicles and general quality, but I also remember reading that it is how they deal with it from a very positive Customer Service point of view which results in us not hearing more about it.

Someone also suggested that Fiat have many commercial vehicles and they don't have many gearbox faults so can't be too soft. You guessed it, when I did a search I found numerous posts regarding the Fiat gearboxes in Motorhomes which is so poor that apparently there is a major lawsuit on the go as Fiat have apparently not dealt with it very well from a customer service point of view.

I would argue that this thread has contributed a lot, even the reply from yourself regarding the particular gearboxes that are fitted to particular models is a really good contribution and will be helpful to many who don't have the technical knowledge you have.

I could be wrong but I personally think that this post also contributes greatly to users on the Forum when it has a good chance of helping them deal with what could be described as a draconian approach to customer service that FIAT appear to have at times.

I also think the fact that some others on here have had to pay for repairs, which on the face of it appear, at times to be warranty issues, which some other manufacturers may have covered, then it is undoubtedly a really good thing for the Forum users if it enlightens them to some Consumer Issues and Rights they may not have been aware of. Especially when I have read through many posts and see replies from those in the trade basically saying 'it is out of warranty so you don't have a leg to stand on' or 'it is driver error' when it appears to be a faulty part.

This post doesn't relate to my point of VIEW, I would strongly suggest with my experience of faults in some cars, that it is a point of FACTs as I have experienced them and even others have also experienced them, and quite clearly any information that helps me or others can be found on many forums not just this one.

Interstingly for some, NO I HAVEN'T TOLD MY DEALER OR FIAT UK that I am posting on this site. I don't see that as relevant in any way whatsoever. I am being clear and transparent and merely stating facts.

While some people may be selfish in their approach to these matters and be quite blinkered in their approach to responses, I genuinely hope someone else can learn from my experiences. By posting the problems I experienced with the Corsa engines and Vauxhall's initial reluctance to repair or replace the faulty parts or engine, I know I have helped others in a similar experience.

Not only have I clearly stated the problems I have had, if you re-read some of the information in this thread, you will see that I don't verbally run the car into the ground. I have said quite fairly and with experience to back up my facts that the car is probably ok as a good value for money runaround but not as a high mileage constant gear changing learner car.

Correct me if I am wrong but i am not aware of small print in the Warranty that says not suitable for use as a higher than average mileage learner car and not suitable for lots of gearchanges especially when they may involve sustained rev gear changes! And to clarify, the 1.4 Sporting was not used as a driving school car but was used for six months or so as a learner car as my son learned to drive and as he became more experienced he was taught to use sustained revs gear changes where appropriate and still does.

To answer your only question re taking it up direct with garage and finance company. This will be done in due course if it is not resolved. Initially I want to give FIAT a chance to come good on the warranty as it is a FIAT warranty and while they are debating this, it will give me time to compile all the information I need regarding the full records of the car including communications between Fiat and my garage about it as well as full disclosure of work done before my son bought it. This release of information will include the print out from the car translated in terms I understand and also the definition of what Fiat class as over-revving the car.

I have a question for you NumanR, can you tell me what you understand the term over-revved to mean and how FIAT technical have advised the read-outs from the ECU to be interpreted re this?

NumanR said:

Depending on the engine type, the vehicle may be equipped with the following gearboxes:

- 1.2 8v and 1.4 8v C514 - 5 speed gearbox

- 1.4 16v C514 6-speed gearbox

- 1.4 16v TJet 120 CV C510 - 5 speed gearbox

- 1.3 JTD 75bhp C510 - 5 speed gearbox

- 1.3 JTD 90 bhp M20 - 6 speed gearbox or C510 - 5 speed gearbox

- 1.6 JTD and 1.9 JTD M32 - 6 speed gearbox.

- Abarth - M32 6 speed gearbox

Click to expand...

Hi NumanR,

As you have kindly listed the information about the gearboxes fitted to particular models, can you post for me which gearbox would be fitted in the 188 1.2 Puntos (or 2002/3 models to those not in the trade)?

Can you also advise me which gearbox is fitted to the 2004 Punto 1.8 HGT and also the November 2005 Stilo 1.9D Active?

Cheers, Brian

OK I feel as if I should step in here at this point!

I have just re-read through this whole thread (nothing else to do at midnight on a monday night) and I will not have a repeat of the stilo spring saga in one of my sections.

Lets just keep to the facts.....no TV's, no 188 puntos, ducatos, no he said / fiat said /manager said this or that lets keep it simple & on topic.Car rejection, warranties or complaints against Fiat, garages etc can be discussed in the relevent sections on the forum.


From the initial post I understand that a GP had a gearbox fault which was infact a cable problem. Another GP had a gearbox replaced and now requires it to be replaced again.The reason why the replaced gearbox is not being replaced is due to over revving, alledgely! Fiat techs or anyone else connected with Fiat are unlikely to give out any information on the subject of the over rev counter in the ECU for whatever reason that may be, this is up to the individual & not open for argument or discussion.

It must be remembered that information provided here on the forum is purely peoples own opinions[/U], they may be correct or they may be incorrect so dont take anything as 'gospel'. In light of this I would recommend a independent inspection of the gearbox, this way no fingers can be pointed at Fiat 'sympathisers' (at least 3 of the UK's top Fiat techs advice here is being ignored maybe for this exact reason or maybe their info is incorrect?) and also likewise stops others jumping on the anti-Fiat bandwagon because from what I have read in this thread the same old things are being repeated and were getting nowhere.

(onboard the info you requested from numanR is freely available on the internet,its unfair to request information that from a outside point of view [and I must admit it does seem from your posts] that you only want this information so you can use it to back up your gearbox claim.)

Therefore we have 2 options;
1) keep on topic & stop going around in circles & bringing non-related topics to the thread or
2) close the thread (at least until a conclusion to the topic in question is in sight/achieved)

Hi,

I have taken onboard what has been said here and I will post only facts:

The gearbox I have been advised is the same gearbox as used in 2002/2003 Puntos of which we had two that were holed at dif casing in 2003 & 2004.

Not sure yet if same box as Stilo but will find out.

Fiat Customer Service today say FINAL ANSWER not repairing under warranty as it has been over-revved. 'Over-revved' I still need more details on, but I have been told today and this is important for Forum users is - 'shifting down gears too soon causing the road wheels to allow the engine to go over the max engine speed for the gear' - not making as much sense to me yet but heh it may just be me as I think the 1.4 Sporting has a rev limiter fitted and also I don't think this means the car was red-lined and if it was red lined how can it be over-revved when a limiter is fitted.

Now I have learned today that it is the pinion from the dif that has sheared and damaged the casing from the inside out. I have been advised by the workshop manager and an independent motor engineer (albeit he has still to view the actual parts and subsequent damage) that they don't understand how even over-revving the car could cause such a component to fail and they would expect other components to have failed first.

I will be aiming for a meeting with the workshop manager and service manager of the garage concerned and I will be expecting to be shown the failed component as well as the ECU reading relative to the recorded over-revving as well as interpretation of the reading in terms that I, as a non mechanic or technician, will understand.

If this shows beyond doubt that it is driver error and abuse of the vehicle then heh, I stand corrected and will update accordingly.

If it does not show, beyond doubt, that it wasn't manufacturing or mechanical fault then things will progress up a stage and:

I will also be requesting all relevant information re this gearbox and the previous one.

Depending how this goes and what is explained to me, my next steps will be involving the HP company who still own the vehicle under the terms of the agreement as well as others who have been told the same by FIAT 'sorry about the problem with your gearbox but it has been over-revved and is not covered by warranty.

Interesting I was told today that the car is showing 255 over-revs. I have also found someone else who was told their car had been over-revved resulting in a gearbox problem at dif. How many times had they been told it had been over-revved and this I find incredible ..................... also 255 times ......... what a co-incidence.

I hope this has stayed within the bounds of your first option and has stayed on topic.

If you feel it has not by all means PM me and advise me where I have gone wrong.

255 is an important number to a computer, being the maximum number it can store in a single byte. What this probably means is that after 255, it stops counting.

Hi again onboard, I must say I admire your tenacity and ability to compile a long Post anyways, not defending Fiat in ANY way, part of you Post :-
"it has been over-revved. 'Over-revved' I still need more details on, but I have been told today and this is important for Forum users is - 'shifting down gears too soon causing the road wheels to allow the engine to go over the max engine speed for the gear' - not making as much sense to me yet "

To me this seems easy to get your head around, in extremis imagine driving down a road at 50Mph in 4th/5th then dropping it "down" the box into 1st....

The significance here is that it is not possible to go to 50Mph in 1st gear going "up" the box because of the rev limiter.

The rev limiter will not work under the downward gearchange, the engine is a passenger heading towards the scene of an event when the momentum of the vehicle weight forces the gearbox / diff internals to rotate at a faster rate than that it was designed to. That causes an over-rev.

I thought these days Learners were not taught to change down the gearbox but rely on the brakes only? I accept when I learned to drive brakes were not as strong as they are now and changing down the box approaching a stop or junction was the norm.

I rarely use too much in the way of engine braking unless im driving "enthusiastically" afterall new brake pads cost 15 quid and I would rather replace them than the clutch/box! Its not really needed especially in modern cars either IMO!

If the engine has been overrevved on the downshifts then fair enough but surely the engine would suffer 1st? Also surely something so dangerous to the mechanicals cant have occured at least 255 times?

I would be interested to know at what point it becomes an overrev, thats still not too clear to me im afraid, can they tell how many of these supposed overrevs were on acceleration ie changing up at the limiter (or if thats even classed an overrev, if so then mine would log them too as im not above getting the limiter from time to time) or on the downshifts?

auto_blanco said:

I rarely use too much in the way of engine braking unless im driving "enthusiastically" afterall new brake pads cost 15 quid and I would rather replace them than the clutch/box! Its not really needed especially in modern cars either IMO!

If the engine has been overrevved on the downshifts then fair enough but surely the engine would suffer 1st? Also surely something so dangerous to the mechanicals cant have occured at least 255 times?

I would be interested to know at what point it becomes an overrev, thats still not too clear to me im afraid, can they tell how many of these supposed overrevs were on acceleration ie changing up at the limiter (or if thats even classed an overrev, if so then mine would log them too as im not above getting the limiter from time to time) or on the downshifts?

Click to expand...

Interesting conundrum isnt it, who is to say who is right? At days end the dealer holds the Aces in tems of what they say is wrong unless some expensive independent Engineering agency is emplyed as a Test case to blow the whole thing apart (scuse the pun, not intended)

Ffoxy said:

I thought these days Learners were not taught to change down the gearbox but rely on the brakes only? I accept when I learned to drive brakes were not as strong as they are now and changing down the box approaching a stop or junction was the norm.

Click to expand...

This is the case, and the same is also applied to those who do the IAM Advanced Driving Course....

Agreeeing with Auto_Blanco, surely, if the engine was repeadtely being pushed past its limit, that would have suffered a failure of some description by now?

sean.round said:

This is the case, and the same is also applied to those who do the IAM Advanced Driving Course....

Agreeeing with Auto_Blanco, surely, if the engine was repeadtely being pushed past its limit, that would have suffered a failure of some description by now?

Click to expand...

I'm no Mechanical Engineer but yes, probably, just not especially in these cases. Remeber the gearing ratios of differential and gearboxes may be the defining point here. I would have thought the weak links in the motor for over-revving would be cambelt (jumping / breaking) valve / piston contact or pure crankshaft centrifugal destruction caused by the crankshaft "whipping" and physically bending out of shape.

But this is differential / gearbox so the above is a guess lol!

Who ever started this thread... just goto Fiat and ask to see the over revs if it has been put into 1st or 2nd at 4th or 5th gear speeds (50-60mph) if it has and its in black and white then its your fault and you pay for the box.

If it has only been put into 1st and 2nd at below 5000rpm so 20/40mph respectively then say I haven't over revved it and now give me a new gearbox! Simple.

Seriously ask to see this stuff... its the first thing I would have done. :bang:

Ffoxy said:

...... I thought these days Learners were not taught to change down the gearbox but rely on the brakes only? I accept when I learned to drive brakes were not as strong as they are now and changing down the box approaching a stop or junction was the norm.

Click to expand...

sean.round said:

This is the case, and the same is also applied to those who do the IAM Advanced Driving Course....

Agreeeing with Auto_Blanco, surely, if the engine was repeadtely being pushed past its limit, that would have suffered a failure of some description by now?

Click to expand...

Engine braking is an older style of driving and whether you are a learner driver or being taught to be a driving instructor or in fact being taught your IAM or RoSPA Advanced Driving, when slowing the car, you are generally taught to slow the speed of the vehicle either by using acceleration sense or braking to the required speed and then selecting the appropriate gear for that speed. However.....

What is being discussed here is a different thing totally, imagine the scene, the car is being driven eg at 70mph in 5th gear and the driver is looking for better control and flexibility for a hazard that doesn't require him to slow down (that hazard may be a bend). So the driver carries out a 'sustained revs' gear change ie he increases the revs of the engine to change gear into 4th or 3rd (not driven it much and not recently but as far as I know, even 70mph is still within the range of 3rd gear in the 1.4 Sporting) So slight pressure is actually applied to the accelerator to increase engine speed to allow for a smoother gearchange to a lower gear, it does take practice and even experienced drivers can get it slightly wrong causing a slight mis-match with car and engine speed.

Now the following actions of 'going from 5th to 3rd gear but not necessarily going over red line' is what was initially described to me by Fiat as an over-rev and the description changed once they realised I knew a bit what this actually is and as a result,this is where I need clarification like many to actually understand what they precisely mean is an over-rev.

I have requested a meeting with workshop manager, General Manager of Service Dept for the multi-complex and also the regional Fiat Rep.

OCZedd said:

Who ever started this thread... just goto Fiat and ask to see the over revs if it has been put into 1st or 2nd at 4th or 5th gear speeds (50-60mph) if it has and its in black and white then its your fault and you pay for the box.

If it has only been put into 1st and 2nd at below 5000rpm so 20/40mph respectively then say I haven't over revved it and now give me a new gearbox! Simple.

Seriously ask to see this stuff... its the first thing I would have done. :bang:

Click to expand...

It doesnt log all that information it just logs that it has happened.

punto_matt said:

It doesnt log all that information it just logs that it has happened.

Click to expand...

i belive it does log all of that chap , i got told that it even logs the temperature of the engine and time during the change

Meh i thought i had read from T or Numan R that it just logs its happened.

onboard said:

I have requested a meeting with workshop manager, General Manager of Service Dept for the multi-complex and also the regional Fiat Rep.

Click to expand...

onboard, i take it you are referring to the EK branch, ive seen the black punto (which i assume this thred is about) up there, that was a good few weeks ago now, maybe even two months ago.

i would love to sit in that meeting with you to hear what crap they come away with, hopefully you will make them realise that we are all not stupid!!!

good luck!!

FFS people, it's been posted before but here it is again for those not paying attention...

An over-rev event is logged whenever the engine hits the limiter (whether it's stationary or moving), or by mechanical abuse (selecting a low gear at high speed and thus sending the revs beyond the limiter).

The ECU logs the total number of events, the maximum engine speed reached, and the duration of the over-revs (obviously someone who accidentally hits the limiter will change-up quickly, while someone abusing the car will hold it there or beyond for much longer). Usually Fiat Technical/warranty will request the printout of the over-rev parameters on an engine/gearbox claim and then make the decision based on various data including those figures.

Manager's and Service Advisors often have little interest/knowledge on the technical subjects, so you're better-off talking to the DET.