but T, is down shifting to a lower gear at the same speed over reving?

can i just point something out that a poster on here had said about the conrod going on his motor!

i had a mate, who let one of his other friends his motor, a vaux corsa. he floored it and had it up to 95mph, then shoved it into 1st! needless to say he really foocked the car up(think the piston went through the bonnet), and i remember something about the conrod being knackered due to this! might be wrong, but worth looking into!!

um I think you would know if you chucked it into 1st at 90mph.

Ffoxy said:

Driving school cars are well known to be hurt and neglected, in fact most used car buying guides advise against buying one and "to beware" those examples that are not obviously ex-motoring school vehicles (in other words, their history is hidden as best possible).

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Hi Ffoxy,

I am not here to fall out with anyone but take exception to your statement above, as most driving instructors would, to their cars being 'hurt and neglected' as you put it.

In this day and age when image and health and safety is everything and reliability of your car to keep you on the road earning is as, if not, more important, any driving instructor who didn't look after his/her car would be really foolish indeed.

Not only are all our driving school cars serviced to at least the manufacturers guidelines they are also checked on a daily/weekly basis for routine wear and tear. The 1.2 Punto with 32,000 miles which is in garage getting the gearbox cable replaced as I type is not due a service until 36,000 miles and yet I have asked the garage to carry it out 4,000 miles early, certainly not a sign of a hurt and neglected car.

I agree with the reply to post about the heavily discounted cars from Fiat, why price them up with comparable models of other manufacturers but discount them on a whim by often as much as 26% to 28% when to do this you need to use inferior quality parts.

I have highlighted in the above reply, cars we have had, that have not been that different price wise to the Fiats and these cars have racked up the miles and have not shown the gearbox problems.

With regards the Corsas, you could say exactly the same, I would be suspicious if one customer needed new engines in 3 different Corsas, but we are doing relatively high mileages in these cars and if there is a fault then generally it will show and it did. The big difference here for a comparable priced car is the fact that Vauxhall after initially saying no it is not their fault and the car is out of warranty, actually put their hand in their pocket and replaced the engines free of charge once they were presented with the facts. One of our instructor with his own car had a difficult time with Vauxhall re getting a new engine due to the same fault and was told it wasn't a common problem, until I sent a letter to Vauxhall highlighting it was the same fault we had experienced and he then got the new engine free of charge.

With the Fiat's, from my experience, there is no doubt a problem and some people on here may never experience it as their car is not doing 500 to 1,000 miles a week. But it is clear to me that within this forum alone there are many owners of new and older cars who have experienced gearbox problems and many lucky ones who haven't. While I accept that faults or problems can happen, it is the way they are dealt with that is the issue here. We should not need to get into a drawn out debate with Fiat and their Customer Services Dept about the repair or replacement of faulty or worn components so early in the life of the cars.

With regards my son and the way he drives the car and 2nd gearbox needing replaced after just over 3,000 miles. This may have been an issue but doesn't stand up due to the fact it is the same gearbox we had in the 1.2 2002/3 models and 7 of these cars had specific gearbox problems with 2 of them actually holing the casing. The Stilo which was owned by one of our instructors and is now owned by us has just turned 4 years old and has had 2 new gearboxes as well as a gearbox repair all within the 60,000 miles and was covered no problem. Possibly as it was a mature owner?

I note another young lad on here who got hit for a £1000 repair to his G/Punto for a new gearbox under similar circumstances.

When I was researching the issue I had with the Corsas, I learned that although most manufacturers give a 3 year or 60,000 mile warranty they have a legal obligation to provide goods and services (after sales warranty) that are fit for purpose and in the case of a car, it is not unreasonable to expect the car to give you almost 6 years of trouble free motoring in respect of the main components.

I will continue to post my progress with this matter and I will have a busy day of calls and emails tomorrow.

The 1.4 Sporting is not used for learners, the other G/Puntos and the Stilo are.

Too many people accept manufacturers of many different products 'fobbing' them off.

So on a lighter and happier note in relation to the sale of Goods Act and Trading Standards, I bought a rear projection JVC TV for my father-in-law in August 2007 r.r.p. £1999 and he paid £1099 for it (so heavily discounted too) last month the main optical unit packed in just after he had replaced the bulb. The bulb was £163 and it was £50 to get the TV looked at by engineer who estimated the repair at £1463 for the new optical unit. He also said unlucky as it's out of warranty!

I sent a letter to JVC highlighting clearly that the TV was out of warranty and further that I didn't have an extended warranty and my main concern was the TV not fit for purpose as it was a main component failure.

Two days letter I get phonecall saying yes you are right, it shouldn't have failed and although it is out of our warranty we do have an obligation to repair or replace it. It is an uneconomical repair and we don't make the same TV. We would therefore like to give your father-in-law the latest 46" LCD television and we will also reimburse him for the bulb and the engineers report.

Now that is how customer service should be.

so you do use GP's for tuition....you said you didn't ('My son's car is not a driving school car but the others are (or were re the 2002 & 2003 models)) thats the old 188 models your talking about...i'm getting confused with this and TV's now

OCZedd said:

but T, is down shifting to a lower gear at the same speed over reving?

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If by doing so the engine revs over the red-line, then yes. If you were to down-shift on the approach to a roundabout (for example, while doing 2000rpm, and send the revs to 4000rpm), it's not an over-rev, it's engine braking.

auto_blanco said:

For example Ford only ever used the IB5 box on the MK3 fiesta 5spd, yet that had outputs of about 50bhp petrols, through Diesels, upto RS turbos or whatever the really fast ones were, all the same box, just different ratios.

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auto_blanco said:

So what we are seeing is that the OPs gearbox is a 6spd version of the gearboxes that are known to sometimes give issues in the 1.2s with 17s etc on them. Well the Sporting comes with (heavy) 17s as standard, so with more power its fair to assume that they may be more prone to damage as I cant imagine the final drive/driveshafts etc are all that much beefier let alone the actual gears.

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The RS (130bhp) had the BC 'box which was notorious for spilling it's guts even under the low torque of a 1.1 due to the casing being used as an outer bearing race for the mainshaft. As soon as a bit of wear occured the mainshaft would start to float about the casing and wear would accelerate. The IB5 was an improvement, but still had it's issues.

Where am I going with this I hear you ask? Well, my motor runs a non-LSD BC 'box, with 17's, and 226bhp. Has it crapped itself? No, because unlike most 1.2 8v owners with 17's, I don't drive like a tit.

We've only ever replaced one GP 'box, and that was a 1.2 chav chariot wheelspun/ragged to death, and on the standard wheels too.

Transmissions are a black art, especially these days with the power/torque figures being generated on even 'city' cars. The sideways forces created by having helical teeth are constantly trying to rip the gears apart, and coupled with the shock-loadings from wheelspinning it's no wonder even a well-built box will break.

Hi,

To give you an idea of the current driving school cars on our fleet, I have listed them below.

You will see there are a mix of cars from basic £6500 Kia to the £20,000 Golf GT TDi and the Fiats are the ones giving us most problems but as I have said they are far better than the older 2002/3 models, with the new Corsas having their fair share of niggles too. Rather than make/model order I have listed them in the order I have them against instructors as a simple cut-n-paste

V/W GOLF 2.0 GT TDi SPORT
TOYOTA AURIS 1.4D AUTO

FIAT G/PUNTO 1.9D SPORTING

HONDA CIVIC 2.2

SEAT IBIZA 1.4 SPORT

TOYOTA YARIS 1.0

V/HALL CORSA 1.3D (new shape)

V/HALL CORSA 1.2 (new shape)

V/W GOLF 1.9D

CORSA 1.2SXi (new shape)

SKODA FABIA VRS

V/HALL CORSA 1.0

V/HALL CORSA 1.2 SXi

FIAT G/PUNTO 1.2

KIA PICANTO

FIAT G/ PUNTO 1.2

V/HALL CORSA 1.2 SXI

RENALT CLIO

HONDA CIVIC 1.4

SKODA FABIA VRS

RENAULT CLIO

PEUGEOT 206

FORD FIESTA

SEAT IBIZA 1.2

RENAULT CLIO

V/W GOLF 2.0 GT TDi


V/HALL CORSA 1.2 SXi

V/HALL CORSA 1.0

V/HALL CORSA 1.2 (new shape)

MINI COOPER

FIAT STILO 1.9D

V/HALL CORSA 1.2

SEAT IBIZA 1.4

RENAULT CLIO

FORD FOCUS 1.6



SPARE CARS

FIAT G/PUNTO 1.4

FIAT G/ PUNTO 1.2

TOYOTA YARIS 1.5D

3 GP's then...only I couldn't see any on your website just the 'modified' 188's....what does 'modified' mean...big alloys & stickers?

onboard said:

.....Too many people accept manufacturers of many different products 'fobbing' them off........in relation to the sale of Goods Act and Trading Standards, ..............warranty!........ Now that is how customer service should be.

Click to expand...

In case some missed the point with me making comment about the TV repalced out of warranty in earlier post re Sale of Goods & Trading Standards, it was posted to emphasis how many people do not assert their rights in relation to goods not being of a suitable quality and what can and does happen when you do.

Brian

T14086 said:

3 GP's then...only I couldn't see any on your website just the 'modified' 188's....what does 'modified' mean...big alloys & stickers?

Click to expand...

You will notice from the list of current cars that there are 5 G/Puntos and the Stilo. 2 of the G/Puntos although spare driving school cars are being driven on a daily basis by other people and get called in when required due to other cars being in for service or repair.

The 188's (just learned that tonight) were the first driving school cars we had when we started in July 2002 and as I have mentioned in an earlier post within 1 1/2 yrs we had our 8th on order and the garage were told where to shove it, as we were at the end of our tether as were our instructors as 5 out of 7 Puntos we owned were in the garage at the time. 2 of them were in for weeks including one requiring the new gearbox due to hole in casing.

The term 'Modified' was more popular 7 years ago when we started the business, with many youngsters modifying their cars in a way which has diminished by today's standards.

You will be aware that many car manufacturers including Fiat followed suit with many so called 'MODs' as standard or optional extras.

You will see that the initial marketing of our business has been relatively successful and got us noticed in a market that is generally saturated by instructors.

We opted for the Fiat Broom Yellow for high visual impact and then spent an extra £2500 per car to add alloys, rear spoilers, side skirts all colour coded with other parts of the car like mirrors to have an impact.

And yes the 'Stickers' as you put it, or vinyl graphics help with that image and get the cars noticed when most other driving schools are using roofboxes and magnetic side panels.

The Fiats at that time in 2002/3 spent too many weeks in the garage for repairs that simply shouldn't have been required and then longer than expected waiting time for parts. The instructors were not happy how the car unreliability was affecting their working hours and lost all confidence in the cars.

You can imagine that spending an extra £2500 cash on each car beyond the purchase price or £3000 when you take into account fitting and removal of the dual controls it was a big decision to write off the cars after 1 1/2 years when we had expected to use the cars for 2 1/2 to 3 yrs. It cost a lot to do and for a new small business it was difficult to initially bounce back from.

Reading through couple of comments of mine.

The Ford IB5 gear box was used in a whole host of Fords. My 2001 Fiesta 1.3 Flight had to go into the garage to have various parts repaired on numerous occasions after a failure. My brothers KA 2004 50 000 miles has just over £600 spent on various clutch/box issues would of been over £1000 at main dealers.

Secondly, as far as I am aware as mentioned, the Grande Punto is 30% part sharing with the new vauxhall Corsa, therefore I believe a few of the transmissions are shared. I dont know about the 1.2/1.4 but I know that my gearbox in my 1.9 Mjet 120 is a GM gearbox the M32, sticking that into google search shows this box is used in various cars including the Astra VXR and Zafira, various Vectras and even on one of the Lotus cars. So far touch wood I have had no major problems at all, just usual niggily ones.

onboard said:

The 1.4 Sporting is not used for learners, the other G/Puntos and the Stilo are.

Too many people accept manufacturers of many different products 'fobbing' them off.

So on a lighter and happier note in relation to the sale of Goods Act and Trading Standards, I bought a rear projection JVC TV for my father-in-law in August 2007 r.r.p. £1999 and he paid £1099 for it (so heavily discounted too) last month the main optical unit packed in just after he had replaced the bulb. The bulb was £163 and it was £50 to get the TV looked at by engineer who estimated the repair at £1463 for the new optical unit. He also said unlucky as it's out of warranty!

I sent a letter to JVC highlighting clearly that the TV was out of warranty and further that I didn't have an extended warranty and my main concern was the TV not fit for purpose as it was a main component failure.

Two days letter I get phonecall saying yes you are right, it shouldn't have failed and although it is out of our warranty we do have an obligation to repair or replace it. It is an uneconomical repair and we don't make the same TV. We would therefore like to give your father-in-law the latest 46" LCD television and we will also reimburse him for the bulb and the engineers report.

Now that is how customer service should be.

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Difference being is this is a car not a Electrical device.

You really have to swing your balls around if you want something done. When my second gearbox broke I thought to myself:-

Do I want to spend £1000's taking the dealer in question / fiat to court to get another dodgy remanufactured gearbox fitted (for it to break again in 30k miles), unfortunatly you can't reject a car after a year or so.

Or fix it myself properly whine to fiat customer care and get some sort of partial rembursement. I opted for the second option. My new gearbox cost me £550 all together (I told them it was £1000 and got a invoice made to that amount ) and I got £350 back from fiat in vouchers to spend on servicing / repairs / money off a new car or accessories.

As a side note I completely sympathise with you. You have like me being totally unlucky, I Never abused my car the whole time I've owned it. Yes I do give it a good hard drive but never change down to early or bounce it off the limiter and my gearbox broke twice. I think the second time might have been rushed along due to 17" wheels.

I've gone back to 15" wheels and I'm now running the grande 6 speed gear box from a 1.4 16v and its been rock solid for 40k miles now (just hit 73k miles :slayer::worship.

onboard said:

In case some missed the point with me making comment about the TV repalced out of warranty in earlier post re Sale of Goods & Trading Standards, it was posted to emphasis how many people do not assert their rights in relation to goods not being of a suitable quality and what can and does happen when you do.

Brian

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I completely agree with that. Unfortunatly when mine kept breaking I had no choice but to fix it as I NEEDED this car for my job and to earn money as you do.

If you can spare it being out of action I say fight them all the way the gearboxes are p**s poor especially on the 188's (mk2 / mk2b punto's) . Which is a crying shame as the rest of the car is built really well (for a budget car) .

Hey ho onboard, WRT my quote you copied over :-
Originally Posted by Ffoxy
Driving school cars are well known to be hurt and neglected, in fact most used car buying guides advise against buying one and "to beware" those examples that are not obviously ex-motoring school vehicles (in other words, their history is hidden as best possible).

I must have been lacking clarity here... its the learner drivers who hurt and neglect Driving school cars, not the Instructors. What can an instructor do when a learner has dropped into too low a gear and let the clutch out? Nothing, its happened already and the car suffers the consequences, just a simple example of my drift...

As I said later in my Post (conveniently omitted) I empathise with you, and feel your pain, but maybe you are right, maybe Fiats dont make great driving school cars...

Well there are many cars not suitable for many roles, for example, Black Cabs.

Custom made for a hard job, wonder why that happened? Tough as old boots, easy access for plenty passengers di dah dah.... but would they make a cheap and desireable Daily Driver for the masses?

The perfect Driving School car is?.....

Ffoxy said:

The perfect Driving School car is?.....

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A knackered old none turbo diesel with a clutch the size of a bin lid lol.

ChrisUK said:

A knackered old none turbo diesel with a clutch the size of a bin lid lol.

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I learned in a Hillman Imp ffs.....

Ffoxy said:

I learned in a Hillman Imp ffs.....

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And whats one of them then?.... lol

ChrisUK said:

And whats one of them then?.... lol

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GTFO Bad Boi!

Hi Guys, just a quick update - Fiat Customer Care now have complaint logged and will let me know in 48hrs what they think. I do know they called the garage today but the service manager was not in the branch.

I will wait patiently to see how it goes.