Technical Where should i spray the EGR cleaner?

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Technical Where should i spray the EGR cleaner?

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Hello,

I've bought a can of Wynns EGR extreme cleaner spray and am wondering where exactly to spray it.

If looking at this picture and zooming in on where the MAF-sensor is (you can see the small red contact if zooming) https://ibb.co/wC6GKdX

I'm wondering if i should remove the hose just after the MAF-sensor and spray it there?

I read that the Air filter should be removed and that it should be after the MAF-sensor as it's not good to use the spray on the sensor. However, if i just manage to remove the hose after the air filter & sensor i don't see why i'd need to remove them.

The hose just after the MAF-sensor is, from what i can see, connected to at least 2 places. Hopefully (but it's not visible without removing a lot) i think it goes to a metal pipe and the EGR after making a 90 degrees turn, but it also goes into the engine through a small rubber pipe. So if i spray there it will most likely go into both places. If it's the correct place.

If i can't be sure about it after writing on the forum i'll wait not to risk anything going wrong and spraying into the wrong place.

Kind Regards
Jonathan Johansson
 
Would be MUCH better if you removed hose from front of inlet manifold and sprayed in there.
Mind you, I think it is pretty useless stuff.

Ian.
 
Hi,

Thanks for the reply. Where exactly is that you mean, would you mind drawing where you mean on the picture?

Yes removing it would definitely be the best, but, one of the bolts for the EGR is completely round and difficult to remove and there is no error message for the EGR but i suspect it's dirty. I already have the spray and if it could do something good i'd like to use it.

Kind Regards
Jonathan
 
Hi,

Thanks for the reply. Where exactly is that you mean, would you mind drawing where you mean on the picture?

Yes removing it would definitely be the best, but, one of the bolts for the EGR is completely round and difficult to remove and there is no error message for the EGR but i suspect it's dirty. I already have the spray and if it could do something good i'd like to use it.

Kind Regards
Jonathan
PC's suggestion is best. Spray is basically useless. The crap inside there has to be seen to be believed. Thick tar is good description.
As I don't know your exact engine setup I can only generalise. There will be a large air hose (maybe 75mm diameter) coming from your intercooler to the inlet manifold. This hose can be disconnected from the inlet manifold and the spray squirted inside the manifold. The motor will run with hose disconnected.
Ian.
 
You need to spray it into the intake, after the turbo,

Instructions are on the can basically you’ll need to disconnect the turbo to inlet manifold pipe then spray it in there.

The cleaner is very good at getting rid of all the crap that builds up on the inside of the intake pipes which is on diesels usually a thick sludge of black carbon build up, but then the EGR moves gases from the exhaust into the intake, so I’m not sure how the cleaner is suppose to clean the EGR it’s self as the movement of gases means the cleaning chemicals would have to some how go against the flow...

Anyway you also have to remember with this stuff that all the crap you clean off gets flushed into your engine and then put into the DPF, so you’ll just move the crud from one place to another
 
Hi,

Thanks for the reply. Yes i read about the dirt simply moving into the DPF which is much more costly to replace, but it appears that my Fiat Ducato actually doesn't have a DPF so i guess there isn't any risk for that.

Kind Regards
Jonathan
 
Hi Jonathan

Maybe these diagrams will help.
 

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Hello,

Thank you that's really great that you found that. Do you know if it's for this exact engine? It seems to be.

So, where exactly (based on those pictures) should i remove a hose and apply the spray? What number / between what numbers on the picture? The pink (number 9) is a plastic thing seems a bit more difficult to remove easily, and regarding the two red between number 9 and 10, i think at least one of them is metal and not a hose but i can double check.

Kind Regards
Jonathan
 
Hi Jonathan.

If you Google "Fiat Ducato 1st X250 Training Manual" you should find a pdf document from the Fiat Training Academy, dated 2006. I assume this was used for dealer and technician training when the X250 vans first came out, and concentrates on what is different from previous vans. The coloured diagram was copied from this, and yes, it is specific to the 2 litre engine.


The EGR valve (shown in blue) bleeds a varying amount of exhaust gas from the exhaust manifold via the red pipe (metal ?) to the inlet manifold. To get any solvent cleaner into it I think you would have to remove the red pipe.

The EGR valve on the 2 litre engine uses an electric servomotor, this is different to the 2.3 litre engines which use vacuum operation. Maybe if the EGR valve has a build up of oil/carbon deposits the servomotor is making complaining noises, or trying to do some sort of self cleaning ? This is only a guess.
 
I have to say right off that I'm not much into FIAT diesels, but I have messed about quite a bit with the VW 1.9 TDI VE and PD engines where EGR valve and inlet manifold fouling is a significant problem. I would agree with those above who say simply spraying "stuff" into the inlet is unlikely to have a lasting effect and beware you don't cause any solid bits of carbon - and they don't need to be big "chunks" - to travel through the combustion chamber into the exhaust where they can do great damage to turbo impeller blades.

My old Cordoba 1.9 TDI had the old VE engine which suffered a gradual and, eventually, significant, drop off in performance which I suspected to be due to manifold fouling. Here's a video of pretty much exactly what I found when I eventually stripped it down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xkyo7XryFMY If you think a quick squirt with a spray into the inlet is going to significantly "sort" any of that out I would suggest you are deluding yourself!

I did not go the route of setting fire to the manifold as I feared it might cause distortion. Luckily we have an engine reconditioner not too far away (an hour in the car) who handled it for me - I believe he cleaned it in a hot caustic bath? - I didn't ask any penetrating questions, He took £20 off me and I considered it money well spent. The manifold looked like new when I got it back a week later. The EGR itself I cleaned with wire brushes, screwdrivers, spray cans of "miracle" fluid and anything else I could think of - Oven cleaner works quite well! The difference in performance and overall sweet running was amazing! The PD engine hadn't done such a high mileage when it gave trouble so we never had occasion to investigate it's manifold but it did gum up the variable vanes in it's turbo forcing the CEL to light up and LIMP to engage whenever large throttle openings were tried. It wasn't difficult to diagnose because the VV operating arm was solid so, remembering the success I'd had with the oven cleaner, I dropped the exhaust pipe off at the turbo outlet and sprayed oven cleaner up it. Waited 'till the frothing was completely finished, washed it out, sprayed more oven cleaner in, etc, etc, whilst also "waggling" the actuating arm. It seemed to clean up quite nicely and continued to work fine until he sold the car (Skoda Fabia) maybe 9 months later to buy a 1.6 CR engined Fabia Scout. That car gave so much trouble with it's egr valve that in the end we paid for a delete to be performed on it. Probably not legal now and an instant MOT fail I'm sure. Accessing the EGR on the CR is not a "recreational activity". Eventually that car got sold when it's DPF failed and the cost of repair was "silly". We managed to effect a repair that made it driveable enough to get £500 trade in on it against a new KIA Rio for him. I'm afraid it's a diesel too but, with it's seven year warranty, I won't be going anywhere near it for many years - if ever! I liked working on the old diesels, like my VE engined Cordoba, but I'm afraid I really don't like the modern common rail engines so just try to keep away from them altogether.
 
Hi,

Thanks for the reply, that's some interesting reading.

When you write red pipe, do you refer to the light red large pipe between number 11 and 6? This is a flexible rubber pipe and would perhaps be easy to take off, and was the place i originally thought i should spray it, but when looking at the picture you sent i would basically spray right into the turbocharger (number 6) if i spray there which the bottle says to avoid.

Or do you mean one of the other two red thin pipes in the middle (between number 9 and 10?) I'd have to look more closely how they look like.

Regarding the servomotor, i didn't know about that & interesting reading. Do you know if there is another name for the part other than servomotor, i didn't manage to find much on google by writing servomotor specifically. Is the servomotor the part which somehow replaces the throttle body in this engine you mean then?

Kind Regards
Jonathan
 
Looking at those pictures the egr system sits at the other end of the intake manifold from the normal air intake pipe.

I honestly don’t thing spraying this wynns EGR cleaner into that set up is going to do anything to clean the egr valve as there is no route for the cleaner to get to the valve

Take the egr valve off and clean it would be my advice or I would spray it in from the pipe that comes from the exhaust manifold to the EGR, but!!! That’s me and that’s against the recommendations of the product.

From your replies i can see you’re not very savvy with this stuff if you’re not comfortable removing the egr and cleaning it then I would be inclined to tell you to leave it all alone and if needed get a garage to look at it. Don’t use the wynns stuff at all
 
Hi Jonathan

The pipe I suggest removing is the thin one shown in red between 9 and 10. It comes from the outlet of the EGR valve.


The EGR valve controls the amount of exhaust gas flowing (recirculating) from the exhaust manifold to the inlet manifold. On the 2.2 engine this valve contains an electronically controlled servomotor and gear train to control the internal flap. Fiat describe it as a solenoid valve, but strictly speaking it is not - maybe a translation error ?

Some diesel engines such as the Fiat 2.3 and 3.0 also have a Throttle Body (TB) valve to assist the EGR process, but the 2.2 engine does not use one. Unlike petrol (gasoline) engines, basic diesel engines do not need a TB to function. It is a refinement introduced as part of emissions control. Sometimes the TB is referred to as the EGR valve, this is not strictly correct and causes confusion with the "real" EGR valve.
 
Thanks.

That's some very useful reading. Perhaps it is worth to later on change the EGR then, since (i think) some sound appeared some months ago which a mechanic said is typical of the throttle body starting to become faulty but not of large concern (that it makes a sound about 3-4 times after shutting off the engine). Apparently it is normal for some engines but i don't recall mine having done that before although i'm not sure. Anyways, if that sound, then, would be a part of the EGR in the 2.2 engine i have plus that i suspect the EGR being dirty it might be worth to change the EGR later on. Sounds like two possible issues fixed by replacing one part then.

There problem is that there'sa rounded bolt for the EGR which has proven difficult to remove and someone would perhaps have to drill it out. This is why i've planned to try with the EGR cleaning spray.

Anyways, there are no error codes or so, so there's nothing acute to ''fix''.

Kind Regards
Jonathan
 
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Hi Jonathan

Some extra information. I believe the 2198 cc engine is very similar to the one used in the Ford Transit. On a Ford forum I found a reference to the EGR performing a self cleaning action after switch off. It was described as "That little man sawing wood under the bonnet" !

So maybe this noise is normal ?
 
Hi,

Aha! Thanks for the information. Yes it might be, i've driven like this for some months now and have not changed. Perhaps i just didn't notice it right after buying the car. Or it is that the EGR is a bit clogged.

Anyways, there is some poor idling that's gone worse lately. I suspect it might be the EGR, i didn't use the spray so far.

I have an EGR blanking plate laying but the bolt to disatatch the EGR valve is round and has been difficult to remove for the people who tried.

Looking at the picture you send; https://www.fiatforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=216495&d=1616750881

Shouldn't it be possible to just loosen (but without removing) the screws by number 4 and slide the blanking plate there? It looks like this http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/PAMAAOSwqoRbQQ2i/s-l300.png

Because the two bolts holding the parts by number 4 are fine to screw, and isn't it there the EGR blanking plate should be? Or should it be by the purple by number 5? Then it would be more difficult.

Well, i guess this is almost impossible for someone to answer though... Without having tried themselves, i'll start by looking how it looks and research it a bit more first. I might bring it to a mechanics when i've got money too but i just came up with this thought in case it would be enough just to loose the bolts and press it in there.

Kind Regards
Jonathan
 
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