Technical Couple of questions about changing timing belt etc

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Technical Couple of questions about changing timing belt etc

JohnCamper

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2013 Ducato motorhome 2.3 130 Multijet Euro5
Engine F1AE3481D with AIRCON


Vehicle is 7 yrs old, but only done 28K, so changing timing belt is overdue, but what else should I change while I'm at it?
I'm trying to keep costs down, but also trying to be sensible about what I replace.

At this stage I'm assuming that the timing belt, and associated pulley and tensioner should be replaced, no worries. I'm not inclined to do the water pump this time.

So...

TIMING BELT ETC

Gates Kit K015592XS (£90 approx) seems to be the correct belt, tensioner pulley, and guide pulley.

What about the accessory belt(s)?
Do I need a whole kit, or should I change JUST the belts? (from reading, I think there is one for the alternator, and one for the aircon). New pulleys seem to be where the expense is, and trying to keep cost down, after 28K miles are new pulleys really needed for the accessory belts?

Special Tools?
Gates do a pin kit for the crank and cam, and also a tensioner tool. Hellish expensive for such a low use item. I'm pretty experienced with the spanners, and have done cambelt changes before, so I understand timing marks etc.
What would you recommend for a DIYer trying to spend wisely but minimally?

Thank you for any tips or guidance.

John
 
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Just about to do a cambelt change on mine, same engine. You will need the locking pin set as the previous post mentioned. I would not change the belt without changing the water pump, its a gamble not worth taking. You also need to hold the camshaft while undoing the fixing (tool). You also need to hold the fuel pump pulley (tool) while undoing the fixing and a puller to remove it (tool). The coolant will need to be drained and then replaced with new. Aux belts (2) should be replaced, one has a tensioner, the other (aircon) is a stretch belt which requires some "assistance" to replace. You may already have some tools you can use or adapt where required, or knock something up as you go. You can of course save some money by not replacing some of the items, I would prefer to have peace of mind that all service items are replaced. Lastly, check torque settings for refitting and have a nice white marker pen to hand.
 
Thanks for that, Tiger.


The items that I am choosing to NOT replace amount to the pulleys for the aux belts, and the water pump.

I see that there is some argument for replacing these items while everything is exposed, but I will have faith that these items should do a lot better than 28K miles before needing replacement.

Whether it ends up being a good or bad decision, I'll just have to wear it.

If I ignore the cost of the coolant as I was going to replace the coolant anyway as part of the service, then the timing belt and aux belts have only cost me £140.

This is a heck of a saving as I was quoted £600 by my main dealer yesterday.

Happy days!
 
Pulleys no, but the water pump is not that big a cost. The last person I know who decided against replacing it had a leak soon afterwards, possibly hastened by disturbing it during the overhaul. Its a lot of work to have to do again should it be needed, and once removed, timing belts should not be re-used. That said, only you can decide.
 
Tiger,

Have you found the crank pulley won't come off due to lack of clearance between the chassis member and the crank main bolt?
 
You know that the engine mount on the timing cover side needs to come off and the engine supported. Then there is enough movement lifting/dropping the engine (trolley jack) to remove the pulley. This also helps with access/visibility to do the dismantling/reassembly.
 
You know that the engine mount on the timing cover side needs to come off and the engine supported. Then there is enough movement lifting/dropping the engine (trolley jack) to remove the pulley. This also helps with access/visibility to do the dismantling/reassembly.

I was aware that some have removed the enging mounting, yet others have not. Might be linked to whether aircon is fitted or not.
I've supported the engine and removed the mounting now, all good.
Taking my time on the job, deliberately (to avoid stress lol), waiting for the belts etc to arrive anyway, so I can't proceed much further.
Next trip away is in 3 weekends, so I have 2 more full weekends free to complete the job. Should be fine.
Thanks for the pointer. Handy to have someone else doing the same job.
 
Just a point of interest...

The timing pin locking set that I bought came with 5 items in it, yet I have only used 2 of the 5 pins...

The crankshaft locking pin, which is the biggest and most complex is great.
The camwheel locking pin which simply pushes through the cam wheel into the cam housing is great.
The cam locking pins that drop into the cams from the top DO NOT FIT.
The 5th pin .... I don't know what it's for, and am not using it.

I think the pin kit was originally designed for the F1AE0481x engine, where mine is the F1AE3481D engine, maybe thats the difference.
 
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Which kit did you buy? Although the kit has five items, only four are used. There is the camshaft pulley pin, the two cam pins and two crankshaft pins. There are two crankshaft pins because one fits earlier engines and one the later, you just use the appropriate one. I believe the 2 cam pins fit all, but i have read about people who bought cheap kits only to find the can pins didnt fit and needed the pin diameter reducing slightly to make them fit, not sure if it was a very small polishing of the shaft or if more material needed removing to fit?
 
This engine strip video is interesting too. The first part shows the positioning of locking tools for timing belt and the need to "rock" the cams slightly using the spanner on the crankshaft so that the pins drop into the corresponding holes in camshafts. I can see that if the two cam pins are even slightly oversize they might not drop into the holes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkSlgOmH7jQ
 
I have seen people use inverted drill bits in place of the cam locking tools. (9mm I think, from memory, but might be wrong).
 
Also, Fiat and Iveco both recommend installing the camshaft pins first, then rotating the crankshaft pulley slightly (if necessary) until the crank pin can be fully inserted, which is the opposite of what I have seen in several third party instructions.
 
The pin kit that I bought is linked higher up this thread (ebay).

That video is a good one, I've seen them all and watched several times.

If I'm not being dumb ... I have the crank pulley locked with it's pin, and I have the cam pulley locked with its pin, and I have both pulleys notches paint-pen-marked for safety. In addition to this, the new belt has the timing marks that correspond with the pulley marks too. So why do I need to lock up the cams anyway? I don't need to loosen or remove the cam pulley as I'm not replacing the water pump.

For completeness, I will try the drill bit solution, and then maybe see about filing down the pins that came with the kit.

What do you reckon?
 
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T
If I'm not being dumb ... I have the crank pulley locked with it's pin, and I have the cam pulley locked with its pin, and I have both pulleys notches paint-pen-marked for safety. In addition to this, the new belt has the timing marks that correspond with the pulley marks too. So why do I need to lock up the cams anyway? I don't need to loosen or remove the cam pulley as I'm not replacing the water pump.

You have to loosen the cam pulley bolt before fitting the new timing belt, so that although the pulley is retained by the locking pin, it is free to rotate fractionally to assume its natural position in relation to the teeth on the new belt without being unduly stressed in either direction, which could affect the correct tensioning of the belt and cause the camshafts to be incorrectly timed once the locking pins are released.

After fitting the new belt, and applying preliminary static tension via the adjuster pulley, the center bolt of the cam pulley should be retightened to correct torque before removing all locking pins.

https://www.litensaftermarket.com/f...nstallation/Installation_Procedure_979016.pdf
 
As an aside, it might be useful for future readers if anyone who has a 2.3JTD locking kit that fits can confirm the make, as the camshaft pin fitting issue seems fairly common, I suspect with cheaper far eastern sourced kits where the chroming may be out of specification?

The Laser kit 4636 fits in my experience.

Not sure about the Sealey kit, which is a similar price but seems to look very similar to the Neilsen kit and other clones.

I'm not sure if it is that Neilsen kit, or another cheap one, but be careful with the long crankshaft pin. On the one I looked at, the end that slots into the crankshaft was a separate casting to the shaft, which screwed into it, and has the potential to be left inside the engine if you weren't too careful when removing it, or twisted the tool anti-clockwise, which could turn the job into a much longer one!
 
As an aside, it might be useful for future readers if anyone who has a 2.3JTD locking kit that fits can confirm the make, as the camshaft pin fitting issue seems fairly common, I suspect with cheaper far eastern sourced kits where the chroming may be out of specification?

The Laser kit 4636 fits in my experience.

Not sure about the Sealey kit, which is a similar price but seems to look very similar to the Neilsen kit and other clones.

I'm not sure if it is that Neilsen kit, or another cheap one, but be careful with the long crankshaft pin. On the one I looked at, the end that slots into the crankshaft was a separate casting to the shaft, which screwed into it, and has the potential to be left inside the engine if you weren't too careful when removing it, or twisted the tool anti-clockwise, which could turn the job into a much longer one!

I can now confirm that the camshaft locking pins need to be 9mm diam. as you said earlier.

My "Neilson kit" that is linked above has pins that are 10mm diam. and these pins are therefore useless unless you have the means to reduce the diameter.

I have removed some material and am using 1 of the pins successfully.

A couple of 9mm drill bits would work fine, but you would need to ensure that rainwater cannot get in somehow.
 
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My Ducato is a 2016 F1AE3481D 2.3 130 Multijet. The timing tool kit I have has two Cam locking pins which measure 10mm diameter. These fit the camshafts perfectly. They are quite precise, slight rocking of the cams is required to allow the pins to drop into their respective holes. The holes in the cam covers which have the removable plugs screwed in, are also 10mm diameter, so when the pins are in place there is no movement. Why there seems to be a difference is a puzzle to me as the genuine Fiat tool number 99360614 is constant across many years. All I can think is that occasionally there may be pins made by cheap producers which are very slightly oversize and are not a good fit???
 
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