Intermittent fault. Only done it twice, but would like to get to bottom of it. I think its a relay, but don't know which one!
Engine cranks but does not fire. When this has happened the led panel for clock and odometer does not illuminate when ignition is turned back on.
Connect a jump pack, turn key, led panel lights up & it starts. Once started abs lights stay on until driven. I think its a relay which must control part of the engine abs and dash. Just no idea which relay?
Both times this has happened the battery has been slightly low but still with enough power to turn engine @ decent speed. It seems that adding the jump pack and giving 13v rather than 12v is enough to latch the offending relay.
Any help appreciated. n.b. does not log any fault codes or activate immobiliser warning.

I am sorry, but I tend to be sceptical when relays are blamed for faults.

Please confirm that the key code warning light has extinguished when the fault occurs.

When the key is inserted, it is checked by the key code system, and if OK a wake up message is sent to the ECU. There have been threads relating to faulty wiring harnesses causing problems in this area.

In simple terms, when the ECU receives the key recognised message, it operates the main injection relay T09, and also relay T10, which supplies the fuel lift pump.

Can you hear the pump running?

The main injection relay (T09) supplies two fuses F17 (10A), and F22 (20A) labelled "primary services" of which I suspect F22 supplies the injectors. T09 also supplies fuse F11 (15A) which is labelled "secondary services". These services include the instrument panel.

If you wish to prove the relay T09 by substitution, why not exchange with relay T13, which is allocated to "heated seat" and "rear current socket"? (My PVC came with no heated seat or rear socket, but T13 was fitted.)


Relay T09 is located in the engine bay fusebox, and is a red relay in the middle of 5 on the rear row. For more about the engine bay fusebox see my post second post on this current thread. https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/482024-engine-cuts-out-when-lights-turned.html

Relay T13 is in the RH cab fuse panel and is the second from the left, but the first position is probably vacant.


Please confirm what you mean by "turning the ignition back on again"?
Do you mean releasing the key from the start position, or do you mean a second attempt from Off?

Could be ignition switch also.

Could be symptomatic of a dying battery, despite apparent cranking speed; that may well drain too much current for other essential systems to allow normal starting. Also check for rock solid earthing from engine to chassis, temporarily use a jump lead if you have on. Dying batteries and ropey earthing can provide hours of very subtle intirgue as I have found out myself!

The combined response has been really helpful, thank you.
I guess that a bad earth on one of the circuits could cause a problem? It's just that I have never had a vehicle which turns over at a full and proper cranking speed without it also activating the circuits to enable it to run.
The 2 times this has happened were when the battery was a little low. I had left the parking lights on for a few minutes. It is a motorhome, so there are 22 of them, 8 filament & 14 led.
Have checked and tested the battery. It seems to be o.k. The ignition switch is fine. Have discounted immobiliser/ transponder fault as warning light does not activate.
One clue that I failed to mention in my original post, is that the clock needs to be reset after the non start, as it would if the battery had been disconnected.
I can always start the vehicle by using the "emergency start" button, linking it to the 300 plus amps of leisure batteries. It's just that I know something is not quite right! Why is everything fine @ 13 volt and not @ 12 volt?

6000karl said:

I can always start the vehicle by using the "emergency start" button, linking it to the 300 plus amps of leisure batteries. It's just that I know something is not quite right! Why is everything fine @ 13 volt and not @ 12 volt?

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Is your 'emergency start' button a standard fitting on your van or is it something you've modified yourself? In a similar non-start situation I'd considered using one of my leisure batteries but the hassle of moving it over was too much so I just got a jump start from the breakdown service. (Now carry a booster power pack!)

Re. the battery voltage, a 'rested' figure of 12.6 is considered fully charged whilst 12.0 is less than half charged. !3+ will only be achieved when charging (i.e. from a fitted solar panel?) but can give a deceptive sense of security if the battery is not holding the charge.

Have you cleaned all the earth connections from the battery to the chassis and engine? Had an issue last month with one that would crank but not fire, it was the battery to chassis earth connection! If it happens again connect a jump lead from Battery negative to engine and try it.

All previous advice is good.

Your battery may be bad.
Get your battery tested before any driving and a good minimum 5 hours rest.
That will remove any standing charge first.

Let us know what the CCA measurement of your battery is?

I have 2005 Winnebago with 244 2.8JTD and had near enough identical problem.
BUT as a previous contributor has mentioned, check that you "key" light goes out indicating that the ECU has recognised the key as being the correct code for the vehicle. I had not noticed that whenever it failed to start, that light was still on.... This only happened occasionally and usually when I was a long way from home and miles from any help (of course). Once I realised the problem, I just waited for the ECU to identify the key and if it did not, I just turned it off and tried again until it did - sometime it took 5-10 times. Once the "key" light went out it started easily. I have never been able to "fix" it but in the last 3 years since it started and over 50K kilometers travelled it has never not worked eventually and only happens on very rare and infrequent occasions. I also ensure I hesitate slightly between turning the key between "on" and "start" and I think that makes a big difference.

digger58 said:

Have you cleaned all the earth connections from the battery to the chassis and engine? Had an issue last month with one that would crank but not fire, it was the battery to chassis earth connection! If it happens again connect a jump lead from Battery negative to engine and try it.

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While I applaud those that offer advice, I feel that the above suggestion is misleading. On a x244 to reinforce the chassis earth point , the jump lead would need to be connected between the chassis and battery negative. The big question is where? Perhaps since we are not expecting starter motor current, a clean bolt head above the radiator?

After cleaning earth connections, it is a good idea to add a smear of vaseline to the contact faces, and also to the exposed conductor ends.

How is that misleading? If you don't understand that perhaps you should be calling a mechanic for help? A bad earth can be bypassed by connecting the battery negative to a good earth point on the engine. I just can't simplify that statement any more!

digger58
I think Communicator's post is constructive.
It helps me to think more about what I would be doing. It is a helpful statement and not bagging anyone really.

My interpretation of his statement is to choose your earth carefully when troubleshooting.
Do not clamp on the jumper lead to the existing earth point.
Assume the chassis earth point is bad if having electrical problems.

If you were to just clamp the jumper lead to an existing bad earth point on the chassis,
you would not eliminate the issue.
Your troubleshooting would not be effective.

I actually had a no start problem.
All suggestions were helpful at the time.
Hopefully the OP has many ideas to test from the suggestions.

digger58 said:

How is that misleading? If you don't understand that perhaps you should be calling a mechanic for help? A bad earth can be bypassed by connecting the battery negative to a good earth point on the engine. I just can't simplify that statement any more!

Click to expand...

Digger,

I am sorry that my post seems to have upset you, but there is no need to make personal remarks.

This thread relates to an x244. The reported normal functioning of the starter motor, suggests that the engine earth at thr clutch housing is OK. You suggest supplementing it with a jump lead to the engine, and not to the chassis? The ECU depends upon the integrity of main chassis earth, and its own earth point inside the front LHS wing.

Can't see where I made any personal remark??? I just stated that if you don't follow what I was on about you should get a mechanic, A good earth both to the chassis AND the engine are essential, I have recently seen a case where a starter turned over but van wouldnt start, the earth to starter was working but obviously not to other circuits, the jump lead sorted it, its a test really. Hope you get sorted anyway, The earth points always need a bit of TLC and preventative intervention can pay dividends.

Since the introduction of all these auto-electronics battery condition has become far more important than it once was.

I took my Jeep to a specialist auto-electrician to find out which ABS sensor was burned out and he also told me to get a new quality battery as the supermarket one I had was already well down in voltage despite being fully charged.

I did change the battery whan he said that many of the faults his equipment shows are cleared simply by putting on the correct battery for the model in question, in my casr an Optima spiral-cell technology type 35 gel battery.

Maybe it was just a ploy to get me to spend money but why go to a man with all the diagnostic tools than take no notice of him?