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Technical Broken rocker-arms. Try an easy solution ? 2002 Ducato 2.0 JTD - 84 PS

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Technical Broken rocker-arms. Try an easy solution ? 2002 Ducato 2.0 JTD - 84 PS

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TM544

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Hello all.

I wanted to share my experience with a 2002 Ducato 2.0 JTD 84 PS, campervan. Car was in good condition with 72000km when the timingbelt «jumped over» a few teeth. I dont know how it sounded like when this happened since the car was on a train transport from north to the south of Norway due to moving, the transportcompany could not tell me when or how it happened. All I know is that it was in good condition and running when it was loaded on the train. So upon arrival I tried to start but heard on the starter that there was some "lack of compression". So it came to my garage on a towingtruck.

When I dissambled to check it all I noticed that the belt was not as tight as it should be and this was the reason it snapped. It was only driven 9000 km since the last change 4 years ago, maybe the workshop that changed it didnt tight it as much as it should, I dont know, only speculation :bang:

Anyway, my plan was to take off the cylinderhead to overhaul this since the car is en excellent contidion if we look away from a small engine-failure :D

I now have the camshaft off and there are 4 damaged rocker-arms, after googling a bit I understand that this is a commom failure. There are a lot of work involved in taking the cyl head off, so I am thinking to maybe only put in new parts (all rocker-arms and hydraulic tappets lifters, timingbeltset and waterpump) and then hope that it all should be fine..........

Some people (including all workshops) will say that the cylinderhead MUST off to overhaul since some valves probably are bent, I know that this would be the best and correct solution, but I may try this "shortcut". :idea:

Anyone here with experience ? The risk I am taking is some hours extra work IF the failure have caused some damage to the valves. I guess I will found this out when I start up again.

I am waiting for the parts, in the mean time I wanted to ask other owners if anyone have tried this before. :confused:

After mounting it all together when the parts arrives I will share the result here.

Best regards
 

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A rocker can break in use, but this is unusual. Broken rockers are usually caused by the valves not moving, probably due to bent and seized valves. I think you should take the head off and check carefully, not just for valve damage, but the valve seats, and piston tops. When pistons hit valves, they can compress the top of the piston, which makes the top rings tight, so they don't seal any more.

Edit: If the valves are stuck, fitting new rockers will break them too.

Such failures do not often happen at slow engine speeds. If the train company were responsible for loading the van onto the train, I suggest they have some liability. Perhaps they were revving it a lot to climb a ramp?

Initially, dismantle, diagnose, make notes and take photos. Create an estimate for the repair costs, then ask the rail company for a contribution. Would be a good idea to contact them soon to advise them of the story so far, and that you are holding them responsible.
 
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The dw10 rockers are designed with a weakness to break to save the valves, its still a lottery whether they are damaged depends on the speed the pistons were going and the direction the wind is blowing I suppose. If the the valves still move up and down smoothly then there is a decent chance the valves are ok. Replace the rocker arms and turn it over manually with a socket on the crank pulley and you will be able to feel if the compression is the same in all cylinders.
 
Thanks for comments, nothing to get from the transportcompany so I will just wait for the parts and check compression ! Then I decide if I mount it together, or take the head off :bang: I think since the valves are pointing straight down on my engine and are not "angled" only the rocker's broke, we will see ! It will be a interesting experiment actually :D (y)
 
:D Finally, new rockerarms and hydr. lifters fixet it ;-) I was lucky, everything mechanical is working perfect again. Been testdriving and the engine is great ! So I guess I was lucky, and saved myself many hours and $$$ compared to take the head off.

But, I now have the immobilizersystem blocking so I had to use the emergency-procedure to start. I have been checking everything visible and can not find any reason for this... any tips from someone here ??? If so I will be very happy.

I have tried to code both keys I have, I have also scanned with my ELM327 and the only faultcode I get is U1600 - Electronic key. .

If no-one here have some experience, i guess the dealer is my next stop.

Best regards :)
 
TM544 said:
:D Finally, new rockerarms and hydr. lifters fixet it ;-) I was lucky, everything mechanical is working perfect again. Been testdriving and the engine is great ! So I guess I was lucky, and saved myself many hours and $$$ compared to take the head off.

But, I now have the immobilizersystem blocking so I had to use the emergency-procedure to start. I have been checking everything visible and can not find any reason for this... any tips from someone here ??? If so I will be very happy.

I have tried to code both keys I have, I have also scanned with my ELM327 and the only faultcode I get is U1600 - Electronic key. .

If no-one here have some experience, i guess the dealer is my next stop.

Best regards :)
Click to expand...

Is it a 244 ducato?

Do you have another key, try that first.

If its an aftermarket key make sure the transpoonder hasn't fallen out.

Disconnect the battery, remove the lower steering schroud - 4 screws.

Disconnect and clean the antenna connection from the key antenna on the immobiliser unit on the steering colum, measure the resistance of the antenna should be low ohms.
Disconnect and clean the connector from the immobiliser to ecu. Reassemble connections. Reconnect battery. Try starting again.
 
Thank you for information, this is a 2002 Ducato 2.0 JTD. (Hymer Swing 544) I actually dont know the modeltype. My scanner suggested 230 and that worked ;-)

I have done what you suggest, also checked all fuses and tried to switch some of those red relays found 3 different places.. I also have both the original keys, without remotecontrol.

I read that these problem can occurs if it was jump-started, which has been done a lot since the transportcompany didn't manage to start with the result that the timingbelt snapped so maybe this is the reason....

I have sent email to Eyden Locksmiths and also to Bluestreake, both in the UK. (Can not find any companies in Norway that are able to "manipulate" the ECU. Maybe if it is not too expensive I will send in the ECU and immobilizerunit and reprogram the system somehow ?. As I understand this is a common problem, and the absolute best would be to get totally rid of this problematic system. We will see what happens, all suggestions will be highly appreciated :) ! Thanks !
 
230 is the old shape, immobiliser will be code 1 and box will be yellow
244 is facelift, immobiliser will be code 1 and box will be white/grey

If the immobiliser is ok and the key has lost sync a local lock smith should be able to sync it if you can find the connector.
 
Hi again and thank you for help.

I have now been to a Fiat-workshop and they mean that the immobilizer ECU is defect. They plugged in the diagnostic-tool to try to code the keys, but the ECU did not accept my 5-digit code, answer was that it was incorrect code.....So, it seems that I maybe have to change it, first of all I will take the box out and see if I can open just to check inside. The car have not been started since december and been standing outside here in cold winter so I will give it a try and "dry" it. The box itself and work is expensive (around 700 euro here in Norway) :-(

They told me that my car have a code 2 system and this is a bit "cheaper" compared to the code 1.

Any other things I could have missed ?

Many thanks in advance, I will post the result here later when I decided how to solve this.

Best regards
 
TM544 said:
Hi again and thank you for help.

I have now been to a Fiat-workshop and they mean that the immobilizer ECU is defect. They plugged in the diagnostic-tool to try to code the keys, but the ECU did not accept my 5-digit code, answer was that it was incorrect code.....So, it seems that I maybe have to change it, first of all I will take the box out and see if I can open just to check inside. The car have not been started since december and been standing outside here in cold winter so I will give it a try and "dry" it. The box itself and work is expensive (around 700 euro here in Norway) :-(

They told me that my car have a code 2 system and this is a bit "cheaper" compared to the code 1.

Any other things I could have missed ?



Many thanks in advance, I will post the result here later when I decided how to solve this.

Best regards
Click to expand...

minirib - may know a better way:)
 
Sorry I meant facelift is code 2.

Odd that the code wasn't accepted maybe ECU was changed before, locksmith can read the pin code from the eeprom in the immobiliser unit with zedbull, tmpro etc.
 
varesecrazy said:
minirib - may know a better way:)
Click to expand...

sorry been off world the last couple of weeks. The Ducatos have a really nasty habit of corrupting the data in the immobiliser box\ecu. It can be sorted by resetting the immobiliser coding in the engine ecu and writing a new good file to the immobiliser box with new keys then plug it all back in and your good to go.
I could sort it by post for you if needed or if you know someone that can read and write the eproms in the ecu and code box. I can sort out the new files for you and replacement chips for the keys.
 
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Hi ,
I have 40 plus years in the motor trade. When I belt goes you can bet there will be bent vales, but you can be lucky, try turning and lifting up the valves to see if they move freely. I hope the helps. Let me know how you get on.
Kenny
 
minirib said:
sorry been off world the last couple of weeks. The Ducatos have a really nasty habit of corrupting the data in the immobiliser box\ecu. It can be sorted by resetting the immobiliser coding in the engine ecu and writing a new good file to the immobiliser box with new keys then plug it all back in and your good to go.
I could sort it by post for you if needed or if you know someone that can read and write the eproms in the ecu and code box. I can sort out the new files for you and replacement chips for the keys.
Click to expand...
Hello, finally an update on this immobilizer-problem;

After visiting Fiat workshop I thought the price was too expensive for the immobilizer box, so I contacted a local ECU tuning-shop. Asked them specifically if they could remove the whole immobilizer system from the main system, something they confimed after receiving the original numbers from the Bosch ECU in my car., agreed price 3000 NOK.

They said it was the 1. generation ECU's and sometimes they could be «tricky» but they would remove the immobilizer guaranteed.

So I went there and waited two hours while they were trying to get new software into it. They said it was not possible and apologized, mounted the ECU back and we agreed that I will drive the car home, took out the ECU and they would send it to a company that is «best in Norway» in this, as they told me. OK, so I used the emergency procedure, but the car wouldn't start..Hmmmm, the guy obviously did something wrong while trying to attemt the ECU, so I went home without the car and they promised to send in the ECU to the specialist and everything should be fine.

After 2 weeks they received the ECU back by post, but no change. The car wouldn't start. Again, they sent it by post and yesterday I got the final answer. Car is just like when i delivered it to them, only start by using emergency-procedyre. NOT POSSIBLE TO REMOVE IMMOBILIZER-SYSTEM !!!!

They told me they have tried everyting, even hired in other specialist to diagnose this, tried on a similar ECU and used almost 10000 NOK to solve this.....

So, I should have changed the defect «white small box» (7500 NOK) which Fiat workshop told me in the beginning. That would have saved me several weeks and valuable time. I will not pay anything for this experiment they have tried, I will get the car on Monday and think I just order the needed box from Fiat.

I appreciate the offered help here, but don't feel sure on how this works and if the final-result will work by decoding the ECU again.

Any input / experience to this matter ?

Best regards, and thanks again.
 
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TM544 said:
Hello, finally an update on this immobilizer-problem;

After visiting Fiat workshop I thought the price was too expensive for the immobilizer box, so I contacted a local ECU tuning-shop. Asked them specifically if they could remove the whole immobilizer system from the main system, something they confimed after receiving the original numbers from the Bosch ECU in my car., agreed price 3000 NOK.

They said it was the 1. generation ECU's and sometimes they could be «tricky» but they would remove the immobilizer guaranteed.

So I went there and waited two hours while they were trying to get new software into it. They said it was not possible and apologized, mounted the ECU back and we agreed that I will drive the car home, took out the ECU and they would send it to a company that is «best in Norway» in this, as they told me. OK, so I used the emergency procedure, but the car wouldn't start..Hmmmm, the guy obviously did something wrong while trying to attemt the ECU, so I went home without the car and they promised to send in the ECU to the specialist and everything should be fine.

After 2 weeks they received the ECU back by post, but no change. The car wouldn't start. Again, they sent it by post and yesterday I got the final answer. Car is just like when i delivered it to them, only start by using emergency-procedyre. NOT POSSIBLE TO REMOVE IMMOBILIZER-SYSTEM !!!!

They told me they have tried everyting, even hired in other specialist to diagnose this, tried on a similar ECU and used almost 10000 NOK to solve this.....

So, I should have changed the defect «white small box» (7500 NOK) which Fiat workshop told me in the beginning. That would have saved me several weeks and valuable time. I will not pay anything for this experiment they have tried, I will get the car on Monday and think I just order the needed box from Fiat.

I appreciate the offered help here, but don't feel sure on how this works and if the final-result will work by decoding the ECU again.

Any input / experience to this matter ?

Best regards, and thanks again.
Click to expand...

No guarantee that replacing the box will fix anything now, unless they have restored the data completely, and haven't damaged anything in their tinkering.

I would look for an matching set of ecu/immobiliser/key set from a scrap yard, in Ireland/UK it would cost €150-€300.
 
Wow, thank you ! I was not aware that this could be a problem....Then I will have to reconsider and wait with my plan to order the imm.box ! As I understand you have experience in this, would it be enough to change the imm. box + the "key-ring" around the lock and the main ECU from any 2.0 JTD ??? I am not sure about these models, but I think Peugeot also have the same engines, are there any other cars I can get these used parts from ?

I am soon getting desperate here so maybe I buy a complete car to remove the parts from, if I find a high mileage / rusty one ;-) After your information I am scared to buy the new immobilizer box as there might be a chance it will not work :-( Thank you again, I hope you can assist with my questions.
 
The ring is just an antenna .. A coil of wire you need ecu, immobiliser and the small glass transponders from inside the keys. It is possible ECU from a car may run it but the ducato engine is tuned for torque and cams ground for torque and it has no turbo boost valve which most cars do so it probably wouldn't run right.
 
Have you got the van back now it is it still with them? If it's still there ask them for the original EPROM reading from the ecu. If you can get it from them then I can reset it and give you a new EPROM file for the white immobiliser box.
The ecu is s Bosch edc15c7 used in Giat group and PSA vehicles. I bet they have tried to work on it as if it was a PSA built vehicle like the Scudo. The Hardware is the same but the coding is different
 
FINAL RESULT :

To save some money on this car I bought a 2005 model Peugeot Boxer with a worn engine, this solution cost me much less than to buy a new imm.box from Fiat. Swapped over the ECU and immobilizerbox. Then I attached the key to the key-ring to get the proper signal, I then hide and secured these two under the dash and voila; the car is working like normal again. :) I got two keys with the spare-partscar, and when I sell it I will inform the buyer that he will have to be aware that the system is not as original, but at least I did not have to change the steering-lock :D Everything is easy accessible under the dash if something happens in the future with the system. And if I want to be on the safe side, I can store the "old system" somewhere to have as spare if something fails. Old ECU /imm.box works with the emergency-code so I will be able to use it even if it take 3 minutes to put in the code and start ;)

The risk that someone will steal the car is minimal so I can easily live without immobilizer that works with the original key.

This was a long time "learning" on Fiat Ducato, but I take it as a learning-process that I also found interesting !

Thanks for all input from the members, highly appreciated !!!

Best regards
 
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