Hi All,

My '93 2.5 TD ducato needs a new glowplug, of which it only needs one, called a 'thermostart' I believe. The GP light stays on for ages 1m+ when cold, and switches off immediately when warm, as it only comes into effect at temps below 4C. Now, I ordered a new GP, but it seems tiny compared to what I thought was the GP on my van (GP_2). But now I find another thing that looks like a GP (GP_1). Which one is the glow plug?

Please, anyone who has experience changing one of these let me know how to proceed!

(See attached images)

Thanks

leGe

as shown in GP_1 someone has broken the end off this module, it just had a rubber electrical cover on it when I bought it

My van is a '98 2.5iTD so may not be same as yours, but my thermostart is located in the inlet manifold just where the large hose from air filter/intercooler is attached.

It has a fuel pipe unioned on as well as the electrical connector on top. TBH neither of your pictures looks right!

I've not had to do anything to mine so can't advise re work, however the glowplug light does stay on for a bit when it's cold enough. 25/30 seconds till it starts flashing, start engine & then flashes for another 15 or so seconds

I've since figured out that yes, indeed, it is a flame start system and the glowplug is on the inlet manifold. My light stays on for about 1min plus, and does not go off, this drains the battery a lot so I dont leave it on any longer. It is then slow to start, so I'm guessing the plug or solenoid valve is not working, but not sure how to check either, I could disconnect the fuel line and try to start it, and see if any fuel comes out, but not sure if this would be advisable. If there is fuel getting to it, and indeed the solenoid is opening, then it is probably the glow plug element on in the flame starter thats knackered.

any thoughts?

While I've not had to actually check I've always assumed that while the GP light is in steady mode the element is heating up & when it starts to flash it's hot enough, the fuel solenoid opens, fuel ignites, turn the key, & liftoff!

If this is right then it does sound like the element in your GP has failed.

However I'd be inclined to put a multimeter on the GP connector first, before changing it, to check power is getting there through the relay.

took the plug out today and hooked it up to a 12V charger, no heat or glowing, so I'm guessing the element is the problem. It looks original (Beru) so its over 17yrs old now, probably time enough for new one before the ski trip!

leGe said:

took the plug out today and hooked it up to a 12V charger, no heat or glowing, so I'm guessing the element is the problem. It looks original (Beru) so its over 17yrs old now, probably time enough for new one before the ski trip!

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I'd say the glow plugin the thermostart probably draws at least 40A-80A so a charger won't heat it much. What current was on the charger when yoou connected it?

From what I can see in fiat parts this engine should have both normal glow plugs and the thermostart. The thermostart is FIAT 500303569

This should be equivalent: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Iveco-Equival...CommercialVehicleParts_SM?hash=item20ad4f7cba

i'm pretty sure this doesn't have standard plugs but just a flame heater, I got a new one and fitted it, the relay was not giving 12V to the starter but adjustes the contacts and now it is. The only thing is that there is no 12V signal going to the solenoid valve which sould open to let some fuel in. Perhaps it just opens when you turn the engine over but not sure. apparently your supposed to hear a 'popping' which is not happening.

leGe said:

i'm pretty sure this doesn't have standard plugs but just a flame heater, I got a new one and fitted it, the relay was not giving 12V to the starter but adjustes the contacts and now it is. The only thing is that there is no 12V signal going to the solenoid valve which sould open to let some fuel in. Perhaps it just opens when you turn the engine over but not sure. apparently your supposed to hear a 'popping' which is not happening.

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Info on these is thin on the ground, I found onthe german ducato forum it's 20A for the glow plug. They say theres a 5A fuse thats often blown near the glovebox too. This one may be for the solenoid?

Also they say that the flamstart only kicks in at around 0 degrees there is a ptc in the control box to control it.

intereswting, I was wondering where the temp sensor was, as I iced the radiator sensor and the plug itself but to no avail. Just wondering if the solenoid valve only opens when you crank the engine, as there will be no pressure in the fuel line otherwise. I disconnected it and opened the valve with 12V from the battery, and no diesel came out, didn;t seem blocked or anything and there was diesel just inside the outlet but no pressure. the older style ones had a small resevoir of fuel above the starter I think, which allowed fuel to enter the plug with no cranking, I'm thinking of just running a switch to give 12V to the plug and solenoid, as I find even at relatively low ~5C temps the engine takes a few turns to start.

leGe said:

intereswting, I was wondering where the temp sensor was, as I iced the radiator sensor and the plug itself but to no avail. Just wondering if the solenoid valve only opens when you crank the engine, as there will be no pressure in the fuel line otherwise. I disconnected it and opened the valve with 12V from the battery, and no diesel came out, didn;t seem blocked or anything and there was diesel just inside the outlet but no pressure. the older style ones had a small resevoir of fuel above the starter I think, which allowed fuel to enter the plug with no cranking, I'm thinking of just running a switch to give 12V to the plug and solenoid, as I find even at relatively low ~5C temps the engine takes a few turns to start.

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The lift pump runs for 30 secs after you turn the ignition and primes the system so you should have diesel before cranking, one of the germans has wired a push switch another mentioned programming a microprocessor to control it. As far as I can tell the solenoid switches on and off hence the brrrrrrrr noise so my though would be that a push button may overheat the plug or consume too much of the oxygen in the intake. Unfortunately I severed my oscilloscope probe last week so can't check what the input to the solenoid is right now.

[note] I mentioned earlier that fiat parts said you needed glow plugs too ...
Oh one of the germans was also saying that the fiat dealer gave him 4 glow plugs to go with his flame starter and he spent 3 hours trying to find where they went before finally realising it had none. I must have been an option for colder climates like norway.

I ordered a glow plug for a 1993 Fiat Ducato 2.5TDI on e-bay and low and behold there is no-where to put it (still waiting for a refund).

Excuse my ignorance but what is a lift pump? From your post it seems that there should be pressure in the pipe with no ignition turning at all. In this case, if I disconnect the solenoid and open it with 12V, diesel should squirt out the pipe, right?

At the moment if temp is low, the glow plug stays on for around 20 secs and then goes off, (sometimes flashing) the manifold feels warm but there is no popping and no voltage to the solenoid.

The control box consists of a chip, a contact switch and other components on a PCB.

I e-mailed Beru twice for info on these, I'm not holding my breadth.

if your checking for a voltage try holding the key between on and start positions 2 and 3

it looks like the unit in the first picture (LHS) of my first post might well be the lift pump, it worries me that an electrical connector is broken off the end as visible in the picture. any ideas what this might be? If the lift pump wasn't working probably would have much more difficulty in starting it right? maybe its just a sensor

leGe said:

it looks like the unit in the first picture (LHS) of my first post might well be the lift pump, it worries me that an electrical connector is broken off the end as visible in the picture. any ideas what this might be? If the lift pump wasn't working probably would have much more difficulty in starting it right? maybe its just a sensor

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Sorry sorry, talking out my ass I was responding to two forums at the same time and got you mixed up. Your van has a mechanical pump so needs to be cranking. Fist pic is the pump, second is diagram showing location. third is flamestart and pipework

good stuff, thought I might have moreproblems there, where did you source your diagrams? I have a Talbot/Fiat manual on CD but really crappy and not much help at all.

Not sure what the flashing glow plug light means, it stays on for about 15secs and then flashes, should i turn it when it flashes?

Found this on the motorhome forum:

For below zero the glow plug light will come on and if you wait long enough ( about 15 secs) before cranking the engine the light starts to flash and you can here the relay clicking in the control box, this I believe is to operate the solenoid, each time squirting a small amount of diesel onto the flame glowplug, igniting the fuel which then drips burning into the engine helping it to start. In very low temperatures (-10) this flashing carries on for about half a minute whilst the engine is running.

During the initial start and for 2 or 3 mins whilst driving off, a lot of smoke will come from the exhaust as the engine burns off this excess diesel.

I read that post alright, I had a voltmeter between the negative battery terminal and the solenoi cantact, and althought the relay was clicking on and off, there was no voltage to the solenoid. I found what looks to be the solenoid fuse but it is fine, (located near the other fuses near in the glovebox). I did not check for voltage when cranking the engine, but maybe I should have, perhaps there is residual pressure stored in the fuel line which squirts the diesel out.

leGe said:

I read that post alright, I had a voltmeter between the negative battery terminal and the solenoi cantact, and althought the relay was clicking on and off, there was no voltage to the solenoid. I found what looks to be the solenoid fuse but it is fine, (located near the other fuses near in the glovebox). I did not check for voltage when cranking the engine, but maybe I should have, perhaps there is residual pressure stored in the fuel line which squirts the diesel out.

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I must put my electronic engineering degree to good use and crack open a scrap beru controller to see the full story seems like lots of people need an answer to the problems with it. If the relay was cliking on and off you're nearly there check continuity of the relay contacts check if you have 12v at the live side of the contact then theres only the wire to the solenoid left maybe its cracked inside the insulation after 16 years of rattling.