Technical 1.9 jtd loss of power

[richardblack]

Hello all,
I hope someone can help. My 2002 doblo jtd elx has had an intermittent loss of power problem.
When you start it will only rev to about 1200. If it stalls at this stage, it is really difficult to start and is just like trying to start a petrol engine with two of the spark plugs not firing. If you keep working at it it will gradually increase revs (putting out clouds of unburnt diesel smoke) and suddenly clear with a big cloud of black smoke. It might be ok for a while or it might just be unable to rev again. Sometimes it will go for quite a while without a problem. It does seem to have deteriorated to the point where it is like it most of the time.

I took it to a garage who has a testing system. He had it for a day and said he could not get it to play up and nothing was showing on the analysis (that cost me £115).

I was persuaded to take it back when a couple of days later it was playing up nearly all the time. He had it for a fortnight and announced that it was the air mass meter. He replaced this and told me it was ok. I went to collect it and left the cheque for £235 (is this a fair price).

Within the first mile it was doing it again. I will stop the cheque on Monday but don't know what to do. I have seen threads about the egr valve and wonder if this would cause the problem. Would it start off as intermittent? Also, what happens if you disconnect the air mass meter? If it is faulty, does disconnecting stop the symptoms? Finally, where is the egr valve and is it easy to remove?

Sorry about all the text but I am at my wits end.
Thanks in advance.
Richard.

 

[Niall_G]

Hi Richard,

Welcome to the forum (Ozzie will take you through the initiation ceremony later - Please bring your own strawberry jam, hundreds'n thousands and a plastic sheet - don't forget to shave you legs either!).

Sorry to hear your tail of woe. It would seem the garage you are using like charging for their time even if they get no results - nice work if you can get it!

Here's the area of the egr valve. The metal pipe carries some exhaust gas back into the inlet when the valve opens. I gets VERY hot. If the valve is stuck open gas passing through this pipe will warm it up in a few seconds.

Here's the (I can't remember the correct name) MAF sensor - measures how much air is going into the engine by its cooling effect on a little wire held in the air stream by this unit. Unpluggig this on my wife's van improved its running a bit when the egr valve was playing up.

We have a resident guru, T14086, who will be much better placed to offer you some constructive help with this.

Air Mass Meter cost: I can't be sure but I think I paid between £50 to £70. Certainly nowhere near what you seem to have been charged - Any fiat dealer should be able to tell you the price using your registration number to correctly identify your Doblo on their parts computer.

LUKHYGO!....... thats Let Us Know How You Get On!....... Ozzie will be testing!

.

 

[hiccup]

Niall can you tell me how to unplug this air flow sensor. It doesnt just pull off.

 

[toad101]

the plastic you see around the sensor plug is a retaining clip you have to remove that first (i used a screwdriver to pop it off). the maf sensor only affects performance after 3k rpm, fiat charge about £150 for a new one so the price you paid wasn't to bad as they fitted it aswell but as for charging you over £100 when they couldn't find anything wrong my local dealer had my uno for 2 days once they couldn't find anything wrong and only charged for 1hr

 

[T14086]

Air flow & EGR produce similar symptons,since you had new air flow meter (with no change) I suggest blanking off the EGR to confirm fault lies here & not in overboost valve/pipes/fuel pump etc.

 

[richardblack]

Many thanks especially to Niall,

I checked the pipe you indicated and sure enough, after it had been ticking over for a while the induction note changed and the pipe you indicated got warm. It changed note a couple of times until I blipped the throttle (do you call it that with a "fly by wire" and then it must have stuck open and the pipe got very hot.

Pulled the egr off (the bottom pipe attachment was a devil, had to take the battery box off) and sure enough it was chock a block with carbon. When you pushed the valve open, it stuck. Tried to tap out all the carbon but it still stuck. Decided to take it to pieces and sheared the little 7mm nut off! Got to buy a new one now. Advise to all attempters of this, heat the nut up first and perhaps some penetrating oil.

Iwill stop the cheque to the garage tomorrow and buy a new egr. I will probably have a new or good maf for sale soon to try and cut my losses.
Thanks for a brilliant forum.

I will keep you posted and eagerly await the initiation ceremony!
Thanks,
Richard.

 

[Niall_G]

Richard,

Glad you're making progress. I would keep the new MAF sensor if it were up to me. Apparently they degrade over time and send incorrect info to the ecu which will obviously have a detremental effect on the smooth running of the engine.

Cleaning EGR valve: Some on here have had success, others have had problems. Certainly if you're paying for an expensive technician's time, new is the best option. As yours is now broken you might have luck searching some of the on line vehicle dismantlers.

Keep us informed.

PS. I'm shocked Ozzie hasn't made himself known yet........ He must be induging in his 'hobby'...... Baa Baa Baa!!!

 

[Ozzie1989]

Enough of the Welsh Sheep jokes Niall the ceremony must begin...

*Drum Roll*

Ok ceremony over... Welcome to the forum richardblack

Niall's the one with the Sense of humour, I'm the one who gets picked on and T is the one with the Brains. Everyone else is a Doblo lover

 

[richardblack]

Hello again
Thanks for the welcome. It is certainly the most friendly and helpful forum I have joined. I too love the Doblo. It is a great vehicle and I am amazed at the comments on fuel consumption aired. Mine was doing over 60 mpg according to the computer and I know it was doing really well (certainly well above 55) even if the computer is unreliable. I love the space and the driving position.
The problem is that it is still playing up. It seems to be ok once it is fully warm now but from cold it is completely gutless and smokey until you get your foot down then it suddenly goes with much smoke. If I keep my foot down while it is cold I can keep going. I obviously don't want to do this.
I did notice that with the old egr and the new air mass meter you could hear the egr opening at tickover. It was then sticking open which was causing the catastrophic loss of power. I feel it is still being opened when it shouldn't be. My next question is which sensors tell the management system to open the egr? Any ideas. It might help me to isolate the culprit. No faults show on the scanner aparently. Is it possible to run the car without the egr connected or will it overboost or something or damage the computer?
I hope one of you can help as I really want to keep the car.
Has anyone done a clutch on one? I know they are expensive but wonder how difficult they are to do. I was quoted £350 for doing it which I can't afford.
Thanks for all the help.
Cheers,
Richard.

 

[richardblack]

Hello again all,
yet another update. The problem was not just from cold. It smokes and runs rough low down for the first 5 or 6 miles from hot and cold. You just need to stop for a minute and you have to go through it all again. I have found that it is holding the egr open. I spoke to a specialist who has told me I can run without it connected without any harm. Eureka it runs fine again. £330 spent and all I needed to do was disconnect the egr! I will still try and get to the bottom of it as I don't know if it will affect the emissions for the mot. I will embark on a journey of discovery to find out how the engine management system works. I am going outside and I may be some time!
I will think about contributions to the regular problems bit and get back.
Thanks again for all the help. (now back up to 52mpg and climbing)
Cheers,
Richard.

 

[hiccup]

Does the engine managment light come on with it disconected. I feel like saving some money if it doesnt.

 

[giovanni]

No the engine management light should not come on.

Richardblack.

It should still pass the emmisions test without the egr valve connected.

 

[richardblack]

Hello all,
Thanks for all the help. Doblo running really well now, with the egr disconnected, and has done for the past 1500 miles or so. Fuel consumption back up to (indicated) 58-60mpg and is definitely well up in the 50s. The only compensation for spending all that money is that I now know this forum, without which I would have spent even more money, and know lots more about the car. Next stop timing belt as I am at 130000. The clutch seems to be holding out at the moment.
I suppose there must be a problem deeper inside the system, either a sensor or a problem with the ecu but as long as it runs ok I don't mind.
When I find the underlying cause I will post it on the site for information.
Thanks again for all the help and support. I will go off and make a donation to the site.
Cheers,
Richard.l

 

[T14086]

Your running with your EGR disconnected?

1)Its illegal,releasing Nox into the atsmophere
2)Your engine will run hotter

I suggest you get a recon EGR (£110) & fit it.

 

[richardblack]

Your running with your EGR disconnected?

1)Its illegal,releasing Nox into the atsmophere
2)Your engine will run hotter

I suggest you get a recon EGR (£110) & fit it.

Just come back and found your comment. I didn't reallise it was illegal. I replaced the EGR (with a new one) but the engine management system calls to open it at tickover (intermittently) so it runs appallingly. Scanning it came up with nothing wrong at all so I don't know what else to do. Any ideas what sensors might be getting the management system to open it at the wrong time? It doesn't seem to run any hotter with it disconnected ie. the fans don't come on but I obviously don't know about the NOX output. I was told that it would be ok for the emissions on the mot with it disconnected. It certainly smokes much much less.
Thanks for advise.
Richard.

 

[T14086]

EGR is controlled by air flow meter,at idle it should be 1% but if you blip the throttle it will open and stay open for around one minute before returning to 1%.

Alot of people run without EGR,basically its a 'moral' issue.EGR prevents (by reburning) harmful NoX gases being released into the atsmophere,the second reason for a EGR is to lower cylinder temperature.

 

[Bertyboy01]

Blanked off EGR valve and the vehicle ran a treat. Replaced EGR valve and all is spot on. Many thanks for the info, great site.

 

[T14086]

You welcome...but forum is expensive to run but every few quid helps

https://www.fiatforum.com/donations.php

 

[bazza660]

Guys

I am having the same problem,i am going to start with the MAF sensor but if it`s not that

what is the best way of blanking off the EGR valve to check if thats what is causing my problem

and i also have to say "Great site" run by people who know there stuff.

 

[bazza660]

can anyone help me out before i start stripping stuff off that i dont need to