Technical Being overtaken by all sorts in JTD 1.9

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Technical Being overtaken by all sorts in JTD 1.9

jabss

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Have got a 2002 JTD 1.9 40K miles.

On the way to the Man City match today I stalled it for the first time ever! After that it felt like the engine had been swapped for one with 1/2 the power. It's running smooth, not smoking, engine lights off, idling fine, just really down on power.

Don't know much about engines but it feels like the turbo isn't working. I'm being overtaken by all sorts - buses, trucks taxis, etc. Am really worried something serious has gone wrong. Car been serviced by Fiat since new and had no problems at all before this. Not one warranty claim!

My first idea was to get a full service done as one is just about due but any more ideas gratefully received.
 
First thing i would check,the air hoses to and from the turbo are connected properly, no loose connections etc.
 
Sounds similar to a recent problem with my wife's 2004 Doblo JTD SX. That was traced to the EGR valve not closing properly.

The symptoms were:

1. Virtually no power below 2000 rpm.
2. A huge increase in power between 2000rpm and 3000rpm.
3. Unacceptable smoke level when being 'booted'.

As well as the EGR valve being cleaned the air mass sensor was also replaced. The van is now back to its normal self.

Hope this helps. If you need a pic of the items mentioned above, to help identify them, let me know.

Cheers

Niall
 
Hi Gavin / Niall,

Thanks for the suggestion on the hoses. I'll check them out as soon as I find out which ones they are. You don't happen to have a diagram / picture handy do you? I'm not too mechanical but should be able to check if hoses are on or not or if they look damaged.

The EGR valve could be stuck in the 'off' position which I presume would have the effect of removing the turbo? Power ok up until the point I would expect to feel a bit of a rush but now nothing - it doesn't matter how much throttle just doesn't rev, slowly creeps up. Reminds me of a Merc van I used for removals ages ago. Do you know if this can be checked / cleaned easily? If it's straightforward I'll give it a try. Pics appreciated, can you send a link.

Was thinking of getting a service cd from ebay. Do you know if the official Fiat one is better than the unofficial ones as it costs quite a bit more? Thx.
 
I believe that this is the official Fiat CD. Not bought one myself but do plan too soon. Might be worth asking the seller to make sure first though. It is more expensive than all the others but the feedback seems good. The problem with some of the cheaper ones is they are paper manuals copied to cd's and are quite hard to navigate, although probably contain some of the relevant information.

Hope this helps :)
 
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jabss said:
The EGR valve could be stuck in the 'off' position which I presume would have the effect of removing the turbo? Power ok up until the point I would expect to feel a bit of a rush but now nothing - it doesn't matter how much throttle just doesn't rev, slowly creeps up. .

NO chap.... The EGR valve allows a small amount of gas from the exhaust back into the inlet manifold. These gases get burnt again as they pass through the engine. This is done to help clean up the exhaust emissions. The EGR valve on my wife's Doblo wasn't shutting when it should thus allowing too much exhaust gas to be recycled and messing up the mapping.

Photos: I'll take some and post them on the site....

Cheers

Niall
 
Hope this works ... my first attempt at putting an image in a post....

EGR_Valvle_Location_circled2.JPG


Well if it worked the image above shows the location of the pipe that carries some of the exhaust gas back into the inlet manifold. On my wifes Doblo this was getting HOT when on tickover.... I understand it shouldn't be passing gas at tickover hence the technician was able to hold it and feel it warm up..

BE VERY CAREFUL... LET THE ENGINE COOL BEFORE TOUCHING THIS.
START THE ENGINE AND FEEL IT TO SEE IF IT GETS HOT..

If it gets hot I would guess your EGR valve is the problem.
 
Another possible cause is the air mass sensor.

Air_Mass_Sensor_circled.JPG


Look down between the battery and the radiator. The circled connector in the picture is the cable that connects the air mass sensor to the ECU. If the air mass sensor is your problem the engine will run much better with this connector pulled off the sensor than when connected. (Don't unplug with the ignition switched on)...

Let us know how you get on.

Niall
 
EGR operates when on idle and engine warm so your technicians test does not apply. Easiest way to test if egr valve is stuck is to remove the pipe, and make a blanking plate to fit in line and then refit the pipe. If power suddenly returns then the valve is stuck in the open position.

The cd shown on ebay is a copy and not a genuine dealer cd.
 
NumanR said:
EGR operates when on idle and engine warm so your technicians test does not apply.

I bow :worship: :worship: to your greater knowledge. But if the pipe gets warm on tickover with a cold engine (as I mentioned) wouldn't that indicate an EGR valve stuck open? or am I missing something? :confused: :confused:
 
The pipe will get hot regardless, due to the conductivity of the metal anyway. Egr can cause alot of problems, it seems to be the degree of gases allowed that cause the different problems. Some people just get alot of smoke, some get poor performance, and some get poor performance when hot but not when cold. If the engine doesnt smoke alot of techs check the air flow reading and see it is down and replace the airflow meter, with no improvement and then they change the egr. Best thing to do is fit the blank and its an instant confirmation of your diagnosis.
 
Hi Niall/Numan/Ozzie,

Thanks for all the suggestions and especially the pictures from Niall :) My engine view down that side looks a bit oilier and dirty than yours and just having had my hand down there trying to disconnect the wires proves it as they're now black. Didn't get the connector off so will have to try again in a few minutes. Seems a bit tight or maybe there's a knack of getting it off. It's now half-time at City and they're losing :( so I think I'll avoid the TV for a bit and carry on with this.

Have also checked all the hoses I can see and there don't seem to be any not connected or loose/damaged so that's out of the equation I think.

If I get the airflow connector off I'll see how it feels on the way to work tomorrow which is 30 miles or so and see what happens. I'm kind of getting used to driving slow now and remembering the days when I used to drive around in 2CV's. Will post again once I've tried it.
 
Good old 2CV eh! :) Lol, well I hope you get your problem sorted soon and on behalf of all of us I think I can say your very welcome! Look forward to reading how your drive went!(y)
 
jabss said:
Didn't get the connector off so will have to try again in a few minutes. Seems a bit tight or maybe there's a knack of getting it off.

From what I remember the connector has a couple of plastic tags that need to be squeezed to get it off. Not 100% sure though. You might do well to clean the area with a cloth to get a better look and grip on the connector. Don't be tempted to pull directly on the cable.

Let us know how it goes.

PS. A JTD driven slowly is a crime against all things holy :devil: :devil: ...... Don't do it!!!!!
 
Hi All,

Sorry for the delay but after trying 4 times (over a couple of days) to get the connector off the air mass sensor I failed. I read another post on another thread and that guy broke some plastic bits on his getting it off so I'm being a bit careful and it just doesn't want to disconnect. Tried squeezing the sides etc. but I'm doing it wrong somehow. :bang:

Saying that some good news. :) No longer am I driving a 2cv. More like a Fiesta 1.1. Had a race with an oldish one today and he won! (not by much though). I gave the engine a bit of revs beforehand, 75'ish in 4th gear about 3500 rpm after it slowly crept up, to see if a bit of a clean up would help. It seems to have improved things. Still a big flat spot below 2000 rpm but after that it does start to move.

There's still something up so I reckon the sensor must be the problem. I'm going to have another go at the connector at the weekend and see how it goes.

Have also ordered the doblo cdrom on ebay as above even though it's probably a copy. I'll report on what it looks like when it arrives.


ps. Like the yellow 4x4 Niall. Just like mine, same colour but doesn't jump so high and it's got windows.
 
Last edited:
jabss said:
ps. Like the yellow 4x4 Niall. Just like mine, same colour but doesn't jump so high and it's got windows.

A regular dose of vindaloo should do the trick !

I'll try and take a pic of the connector pulled off the sensor to give you a better idea of what needs squeezing/twisting etc to get it off.
 
Got the connector off and no difference.

Finally gave in last Friday and dropped it off at Caledonia Fiat for a plug-in diagnostic. Wierd thing was that it didn't find anything wrong. They test drove it and confirmed it was very sluggish. The mechanic reckoned the Turbo could be siezed! Oops, starting to sound expensive. :( Thats £38 so far.

Dropped it off today as they wanted a closer look and said they would dismantle the turbo and if it had seized try and free it. They said if it won't then it's a new turbo. Blimey, and it's only 3.5 years old and never been thrashed. Just out of warranty. That's another £180 and counting...

Checked the web for prices and turboactive.com want about £300 for a new one and then I'll have to get someone to fit it. Am expecting a call from Fiat to say it'll cost much more than that. I'm starting to wonder if I should part-ex it in quick ...

Anyway I'll update when I get some more info. Am feeling none too happy with JTD engines at the moment.
 
The latest news on the slow JTD:

Fiat dismantled the turbo and reckoned that the wastegate actuator had seized. They said they had freed it up and lubricated it and put back together. Bit more power now but not as it was a few weeks ago. They reckon the injectors aren't working quite right. Hmmm. At £200 per injector for replacements I don't fancy that at all.

That was yesterday. Today, although it felt quite a bit better, something happened on the motorway that's never happened before. After driving 20 miles or so I felt something like a misfire in the engine, the engine light came on, and 10 seconds later the engine died. Pulled on the hard shoulder. Wouldn't re-start. Called the RAC. 10 mins later tried to start it and it worked. Went out later and on the same bit of motorway at about 60mph the engine did the same thing. Very strange.

When it's running it feels fine and then misfire and that's it. Something seems very wrong. Could they be right about the injectors? Don't like the sound of this at all. :(
 
jabss said:
Have got a 2002 JTD 1.9 40K miles.

On the way to the Man City match today I stalled it for the first time ever! After that it felt like the engine had been swapped for one with 1/2 the power. It's running smooth, not smoking, engine lights off, idling fine, just really down on power.

Don't know much about engines but it feels like the turbo isn't working. I'm being overtaken by all sorts - buses, trucks taxis, etc. Am really worried something serious has gone wrong. Car been serviced by Fiat since new and had no problems at all before this. Not one warranty claim!

My first idea was to get a full service done as one is just about due but any more ideas gratefully received.

I think your car was trying to tell you something when it stalled, ie please don't drag me around Manky to watch these time wasters who have won nothing for 30 years. ( Only joking)- I think.
 
Last post as the problem seems to have been solved at last.

After the last visit to Fiat I broke down once the next day, twice over the weekend and about 10 times on the way to work on Monday. If I hadn't been over halfway there I would have given up. Surprising what you notice about places you just whizz past when you're stuck there waiting for an engine to cool down again.

Anyway, seems that when the engine got hot it packed in. No funny noises or dash lights just died. Left to cool again it started and then died again when warm again. The RAC finally got me back to the main dealer after a long day. The next morning they daignosed a faulty RPM sensor. I was a bit doubtful but they were pretty certain so £20 + an hours labour and it was done. Fingers crossed it looks like it's sorted.

So, slow JTD = seized turbo wastegate + faulty sensor.

Thanks for all suggestions - turned out ok in the end. :)

Btw, the wife's the MCFC supporter but season ticket not renewed due to corporate greed (+ cash is tight due to fixing car), Sky messing about with fixtures, and FA restrictions on any kind of atmosphere. Try getting excited about watching a match while sat down all the time - stand up and you get booted out nowadays, blimey.
 
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