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Old 14-02-2012   #16
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Re: (not so) cold starts

I had a weird heater problem with our last Stilo 1.9 JTD. I had to remove most of the dash to fix. I had a good look around while I was there.

The valve to the cab heater matrix seals off completely, there's no bypass through it.

Nothing can flow through "Part three is the radiator" without passing through the block as far as I could tell.

So the heater pump will have to be installed direct to the block some how unless you incorporate your own bypass some how, but not sure messing with the plumbing to that extent would be a good idea.

Finding the right spot to install it on a JTD is going to be difficult I think.
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Old 14-02-2012   #17
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Re: (not so) cold starts

I had a weird heater problem with our last Stilo 1.9 JTD. I had to remove most of the dash to fix. I had a good look around while I was there.

The valve to the cab heater matrix seals off completely, there's no bypass through it so I'd guess your to be the same..

Nothing can flow through "Part three is the radiator" without passing through the block as far as I could tell.

So the heater pump will have to be installed direct to the block some how unless you incorporate your own bypass, but not sure messing with the plumbing to that extent would be a good idea.

Finding the right spot to install it on a JTD is going to be difficult I think.
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Last edited by Shadeyman; 14-02-2012 at 15:39.
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Old 14-02-2012   #18
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Re: (not so) cold starts

Double post, how did that happen?
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Old 15-02-2012   #19
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Re: (not so) cold starts

I've never worked under the bonnet of this motor, just going by what I've found in the past & generally, there has either been some sort of bypass hose OR the matrix has taken a hot feed directly from the block. Either way, the control valve has shut off heat to the matrix leaving coolant to flow around the block.
Trouble is, this crappy CD I bought off ebay some years ago doesn't really show the system very clearly.

There's a reasonable explanation of the system at

With the matrix closed at valve J and the stat (C) closed, water is only pumped across the stat and around the block. when it gets to temp, the stat opens, allowing hot coolant to follow the path of least resistance (wider bore pipes) through the rad to be cooled.
This pic is animated in the link below.
http://www.howstuffworks.com/cooling-system2.htm
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Last edited by sludgeguts; 15-02-2012 at 01:37.
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Old 15-02-2012   #20
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Re: (not so) cold starts


Just got this pic off the Kenlowe site which shows their installation on the return hose from the matrix. I wonder if this matrix has a shutoff valve? In which case, I wonder what the built in pump is doing to circulate coolant. I'll send them an email.
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Old 15-02-2012   #21
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Re: (not so) cold starts

Looking at the animation there's only one place to install the heater pump and thats between C(thermostat) and D(water pump).



However, actually doing this is more difficult than I'd expected because that part of the system on the JTD is intergreated into the block, it also requires the highest flow rate as all 3 systems(block, cab heater, radiator) are supplied from that pipe, not sure fitting something in there that could reduce the flow would be a good idea.

I'm thinking a small bore bypass pipe, pump to thermostat may work quite well. Small bore fits the new heater pump perfectly and shouldn't effect flow rates too much when the car is running. If I'm bored later I'll take the covers off our JTD and see if its possible.

Quote Originally Posted by sludgeguts View Post

Just got this pic off the Kenlowe site which shows their installation on the return hose from the matrix. I wonder if this matrix has a shutoff valve? In which case, I wonder what the built in pump is doing to circulate coolant. I'll send them an email.
This setup looks to me like its being used as a cab heater to heat the cab, not the engine.
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Last edited by Shadeyman; 15-02-2012 at 09:42.
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Old 15-02-2012   #22
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Re: (not so) cold starts

The kenlow heater is 3kw, so it will have enough grunt to heat the block and interior matrix.
It doesn't really matter what direction the pump, pumps in as its not running with the engine on, and even if it was on and the pump was fighting the flow, its only hot water and the engine is not going to overheat as the kenlow unit switches off near the correct temperature and even if it didn't the main thermostat in the block would open and dump any excess heat into the main radiator.

It might be an option to install the heater in parallel to the heater matrix, ie between J and the return, heat will circulate regardless of whether the heater flow valve is on or off, the heater matrix has a certain resistance to flow as does the block so the heat will be proportioned accordingly. If the heater valve is off then the block gets all the heat, if its on or patially on then both the heater and the block get heat, either ways a win.
A drawback might be hot water short circuiting the heater matrix through the pump once the engine is started, but the answer to that can probably be worked out by pouring water through the pump and seeing if it restricts or not. Once the engine is started all the heat and cold mixes up pdq, but the overall aim of getting some heat in there has been achieved. Whatever the solution good luck.
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Last edited by johnhififan; 15-02-2012 at 14:10.
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Old 15-02-2012   #23
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Re: (not so) cold starts

Quote Originally Posted by johnhififan View Post
It might be an option to install the heater in parallel to the heater matrix, ie between J and the return, heat will circulate regardless of whether the heater flow valve is on or off, the heater matrix has a certain resistance to flow as does the block so the heat will be proportioned accordingly. If the heater valve is off then the block gets all the heat, if its on or patially on then both the heater and the block get heat, either ways a win.
A drawback might be hot water short circuiting the heater matrix through the pump once the engine is started, but the answer to that can probably be worked out by pouring water through the pump and seeing if it restricts or not. Once the engine is started all the heat and cold mixes up pdq, but the overall aim of getting some heat in there has been achieved. Whatever the solution good luck.
On the dobbin, the flow & return are easy to spot & get at, with plenty of access to insert something. I was wondering about cutting both pipes, inserting a Tee piece in each with maybe a narrower bore pipe to bypass the matrix. The heater pump shouldn't have any problem pushing fluid through a slightly narrower bore but with the engine running, the coolant would hopefully take the wider bore to the matrix (path of least resistance), so not taking quite so much (if any?) hot coolant away from the matrix.
As I said though, If only we had a decent pic from a decent workshop manual (anybody??) showing the exact layout of the pipes it would be so much easier to determine where best to site the heater. It's all well and good looking at pics from the web but these are not model specific & dobbin might just have somewhere handy to tap into. Heck, it may even be possible that the control valve for the matrix can be tricked into allowing a bypass?
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Old 15-02-2012   #24
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Re: (not so) cold starts

Quote Originally Posted by johnhififan View Post
It doesn't really matter what direction the pump, pumps in as its not running with the engine on, and even if it was on and the pump was fighting the flow, its only hot water and the engine is not going to overheat as the kenlow unit switches off near the correct temperature and even if it didn't the main thermostat in the block would open and dump any excess heat into the main radiator.

It might be an option to install the heater in parallel to the heater matrix, ie between J and the return, heat will circulate regardless of whether the heater flow valve is on or off, the heater matrix has a certain resistance to flow as does the block so the heat will be proportioned accordingly. If the heater valve is off then the block gets all the heat, if its on or patially on then both the heater and the block get heat, either ways a win.
A drawback might be hot water short circuiting the heater matrix through the pump once the engine is started, but the answer to that can probably be worked out by pouring water through the pump and seeing if it restricts or not. Once the engine is started all the heat and cold mixes up pdq, but the overall aim of getting some heat in there has been achieved. Whatever the solution good luck.
I imagine that the pump in the heater is a standard water pump which tends to be contactless (as it is submerged constantly) so wouldn't be subject to burnout.
I've not heard back from kenlowe yet but looking at the various installation diagrams around the web, I cannot help wondering if the control valve for the heater matrix has to be 'told' to close. In other words, if you are running the engine with the heater on, the valve is open (obviously), if you then turn off the engine, does the valve remain open or close automatically?
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Old 15-02-2012   #25
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Re: (not so) cold starts

If the pump did not restrict flow I'm 99% sure the heater pump could be installed in the pipe circled in red(item 6).
This pipe sits inline between the water pump and the thermostat on the 8v 1.9 JTD, I'm sure the layout is very similar on a Doblo.
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Last edited by Shadeyman; 15-02-2012 at 23:53.
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Old 16-02-2012   #26
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Re: (not so) cold starts



This is the best pic I can get off the poxy doblo disk. Had to screengrab, crop then enlarge - which then gives a distorted pic & the pic is so cluttered that is't hard to follow.
The larger pipe ( 8 ) is labelled "rigid inlet pipe to pump". It looks like this drops down to a Tee piece, one part going to the rad lower hose, the other being a smaller bore pipe connected to what may be "engine coolant temp sensor" ( 3 )- which looks likely to link to the stat ( 4 ). The forward part of this goes to the rad upper hose, the rest? who knows but I have to assume that coolant goes to the pump via the rigid pipe, through the block then back to the stat.
The pipes to the matrix will be blocked with the valve, the pipe to the rad will be blocked by the stat (when cold & with engine off).
So now I just need to determine if there is a flexi hose joining the rigid inlet pipe to the pump - so I may have more room to work) OR I may have to put in a couple of longer hoses to replace (your pipe circled red) & mount the heater to something solid - I may even be able to use this to my advantage by running at least one hose directly under the battery to get a 'toofer' (mount the heater AND give warmth to the battery).
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Old 16-02-2012   #27
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Re: (not so) cold starts

Most cars in the Depths of cooler climates have night block heaters, i bet any money Fiat give the option in countries with seriously cold weather. You basically plug your car in over night and it keeps the engine warm, saves you having to drain EVERY fluid every night and take it in the house by the fire,
EU market OEM option maybe?

Or just buy a KAT'S,
remove core plug, fit, alter voltage then sit back and enjoy toasty engine


Or


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Last edited by GrandeGuy; 16-02-2012 at 03:33.
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Old 16-02-2012   #28
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Re: (not so) cold starts

The "rigid inlet pipe to pump"(8) is exactly the same as items 1 and 5 in my diagrams.

The "rigid inlet pipe to pump"(item 1, 5 and 8) bolts direct to the engine, near the water pump, no "flexy hose". But the other end has a 20mm bore(approx) pipe(circled in red) that connects it to the thermostat housing. This is the only place I can find that might be suitable for your pump.

The engines water pump and the heater pump your installing are both centrifugal pumps so neither would restrict the flow very much when the other is operating.

As you say, extending the pipes to suit a mounting position on or near the battery box would be very usefull but before mounting the heater perhaps a couple of test warm ups would be wise.

If it works I may install one myself.
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Last edited by Shadeyman; 16-02-2012 at 09:13.
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Old 16-02-2012   #29
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Re: (not so) cold starts

That bottom hose heater that Grande posted looks great and must be easier to fit, trouble is its not UK.
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Old 16-02-2012   #30
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Re: (not so) cold starts

Quote Originally Posted by johnhififan View Post
That bottom hose heater that Grande posted looks great and must be easier to fit, trouble is its not UK.
Yes, however, that simply heats the coolant, relying on convection & associated physics to heat the engine.
Whereas this one has an internal heater AND a pump. I'm assuming from the inlet/outlet configuration that the pump is centrifugal.
The pump pushes heated coolant around the block so ensuring an evenly warmed up engine. (I did see a thermal image showing the difference between pumped & non pumped heater but can't find it at the moment).
I know they are pushing the product but some of what is mentioned http://www.kenlowe.com/pre-heaters/cars/whatwill.html seems to make sense
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