Register Login
im Axle Specialists
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 17-09-2021   #1
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: kidderminster
Posts: 431
Thanks: 9
Trader Rating: 0
davidthelodge has donated!
United Kingdom 
EGR valve, throttle body or inlet manifold problem?

Hi, I have a serious loss of performance after a EGR swap, throttle body clean and inlet manifold clean. I have changed MAP sensor for a spare one I have and also tried disconning the MAF air flow meter, no difference. My main worry is if the garage have dropped some of the carbon tar inside the inlet manifold. The car has about 20% power and shows the codes in the photo, even though the MAF has not been touched. The garage wont mess with it anymore, it when in with a EML on due to the low flow of air going in via the EGR valve. What can I check next ? I cant see how the MAF can get dirty from cleaning the Manifold ?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	mscan croma.jpg
Views:	23
Size:	3.14 MB
ID:	220339  
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

davidthelodge is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 18-09-2021   #2
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Southampton, Hampshire
Posts: 4,679
Thanks: 355
Trader Rating: 0
s130 has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: EGR valve, throttle body or inlet manifold problem?

I wonder how they cleaned the inlet manifold without removing it which is a complex job. To my knowledge you just can't stuff a bottle brush in there because if nothing else there are the swirl valves to consider.

You say EGR swop. I assume you mean a replacement EGR valve?

Those fault codes all seem to relate to the manifold and throttle body. This would suggest a major/multiple wiring and/or connector issue.

You need to inspect and if necessary use the Fiat Croma eLearn Manual on this website to trace the continuity to the ECU pins.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

s130 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 18-09-2021   #3
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: kidderminster
Posts: 431
Thanks: 9
Trader Rating: 0
davidthelodge has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: EGR valve, throttle body or inlet manifold problem?

thx, EGR was swapped as I have 3 of them for the car. I cleaned and checked the one that when on. They cleaned the manifold with a can of spray cleaner and scraped out what they could from the opening. I am highly concerned some will have fallen inside the manifold and gone through the engine combustion chambers. Today I have had the air filter out and cleaned the MAF sensor, unplugging the MAF made no difference the other day. The fault codes only appeared after driving at 4000rpm. I think the throttle body could be the problem, as thats been cleaned, but I'm guess taking an educated guess.

The mechanic gave me this pic, I guess its where the throttle body fits onto the manifold ?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Croma Manifold.jpg
Views:	20
Size:	178.8 KB
ID:	220353  
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides


Last edited by davidthelodge; 18-09-2021 at 17:52.
davidthelodge is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 18-09-2021   #4
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 3,772
Thanks: 213
Trader Rating: 0
chris3234 has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: EGR valve, throttle body or inlet manifold problem?

Try disconnecting the MAF sensor see if it runs any better
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

chris3234 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 19-09-2021   #5
Join Date: Sep 2021
Posts: 37
Thanks: 6
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Quote Originally Posted by chris3234 View Post
Try disconnecting the MAF sensor see if it runs any better
Says in the txt tried it but no difference
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Popitinpete is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 19-09-2021   #6
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 4,432
Thanks: 323
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: EGR valve, throttle body or inlet manifold problem?

Try reading the live data from the map sensor , different engine rpms , if you dont see any turbo boost then you may have a boost leak (stuck open egr valve?)
Or turbo control vacuum tube problem.
Likes Pugglt Auld Jock liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

jackwhoo is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 19-09-2021   #7
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Southampton, Hampshire
Posts: 4,679
Thanks: 355
Trader Rating: 0
s130 has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: EGR valve, throttle body or inlet manifold problem?

That intake full of crud shows exactly why diesels are dirty cars.

On a normally aspirated diesel the intake would be far cleaner even with EGR. The problem with turbo diesels is that even a good turbo leaks oil into the intake air stream which is then mixed with the EGR soot and then settles on the cold intake surfaces.

How any government could back diesel for car usage where dynamic operation is required is a mystery. Politicians not properly researching, then being fed duff data based on out of factory data with no higher mileage/age data, etc. And if that was not enough the cheat devices cleaned up the act.
Dislikes g8rpi disliked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

s130 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 20-09-2021   #8
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: kidderminster
Posts: 431
Thanks: 9
Trader Rating: 0
davidthelodge has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: EGR valve, throttle body or inlet manifold problem?

I agree about our government backing the wrong fuel. LPG should have been chosen, just like in Italy. That's what my old V8 Jeep runs on @ 57.9p per litre in Devon on holiday last month. Road tax for petrol converted = alternative fuel cars got just a 10 reduction, they are fools when LPG is such a clean alternative.

EGR is working as I have seen it opening on Multiscan when engine is revved.

I tried banking off my inlet manifold where the EGR joins it on my Croma 2.4 JTD, it just puts EML on so as soon as I purchased it I fitted a 4 holed blanking plate. I can only assume it was too late, or the plate still lets too much carbon through into the manifold.

Question - what can I spray into the inlet manifold via the EGR opening and the MAP opening to disolve the carbon, what about petrol and leaving it a day or 2 ? Its a massive job to change inlet Manifold
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides


Last edited by davidthelodge; 20-09-2021 at 23:04.
davidthelodge is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 21-09-2021   #9
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 3,772
Thanks: 213
Trader Rating: 0
chris3234 has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: EGR valve, throttle body or inlet manifold problem?

Mr muscle oven cleaner is supposed to be going d the stuff in a spray can
But it really wants removing to stop and lumps going into the engine
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

chris3234 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 4 Weeks Ago   #10
Moderator
 
g8rpi's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 4,448
Thanks: 449
Trader Rating: 0
g8rpi has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: EGR valve, throttle body or inlet manifold problem?

The fault codes you are seeing in MES indicate a electrical issue rather than a blockage. Need to check all the connecrtors and loom in thea area. Possibly a swapped connector, loose connector, damaed pin or damaged loom.
What engine? a 24V?
What where the garage contracted to do? If it was to swap the EGR and clean the manifold then they should not have sent it back worse than before they started.

Robert G8RPI.
Likes jackwhoo liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

g8rpi is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 4 Weeks Ago   #11
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: kidderminster
Posts: 431
Thanks: 9
Trader Rating: 0
davidthelodge has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: EGR valve, throttle body or inlet manifold problem?

Thx Robert. I will investigate the connections. Yes its the rare 2.4 20v. They were asked to swap the EGR and investigate as I had already swapped it once without it curing the problem. They refunded me but the car is worse now than when it went in. Its a garage I have used for 10 years but I have fell out with the owner/mechanic as they bumped the front bumper and denied it was them, I then found bumper paint on the fence they had parked it against.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

davidthelodge is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 4 Weeks Ago   #12
Moderator
 
g8rpi's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 4,448
Thanks: 449
Trader Rating: 0
g8rpi has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: EGR valve, throttle body or inlet manifold problem?

Quote Originally Posted by davidthelodge View Post
Thx Robert. I will investigate the connections. Yes its the rare 2.4 20v. They were asked to swap the EGR and investigate as I had already swapped it once without it curing the problem. They refunded me but the car is worse now than when it went in. Its a garage I have used for 10 years but I have fell out with the owner/mechanic as they bumped the front bumper and denied it was them, I then found bumper paint on the fence they had parked it against.
That's not good.

What was the original problem?

Robert G8RPI.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

g8rpi is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 4 Weeks Ago   #13
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: kidderminster
Posts: 431
Thanks: 9
Trader Rating: 0
davidthelodge has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: EGR valve, throttle body or inlet manifold problem?

EML came on due to lack of air flow through the EGR valve. When I took it off it was quite clean as for last 3 years the car has been fitted with a 4 holed blanking plate fitted between EGR and inlet manifold. I wanted to blank it off completely when I got the car 3 years ago, but I found on my previous Croma 1.9JTD that it puts the EML on if you do that. My Stilo JTD has the manifold blanked off, sending exhaust gases back into the inlet manifold is stupid IMO.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

davidthelodge is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 4 Weeks Ago   #14
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Faringdon, Oxfordshire UK
Posts: 8,398
Thanks: 667
Trader Rating: 1
portland_bill has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: EGR valve, throttle body or inlet manifold problem?

The pic shows three faults, the first two are irrelevant as they seem to relate to the MAF disconnection, as it states they are stored codes, no longer present.
The red fault code is the issue. It clearly shows a problem with the turbo pressure signal. If the pressure is not fed to the ECU, it will assume no pressure, and put minimum fuel in, hence loss of power.

First, check all intake joints, especially between the turbo and engine. Then look at the turbo pressure sensor. Are the connections secure, then does the sensor seem to operate? (I've no idea what it looks like, or how it operates.) This is the area to look in, as this is what the fault codes are pointing at.
Probably a good idea to check the turbo mechanically. If it is seized, it won't produce any pressure. If its vanes fall off, you'll be glad of the goo in the manifold to catch them. (Sorry)

The goo in the manifold will only affect top end performance. Any dislodged into the cylinders will pass through without damage. They would likely be mostly destroyed during combustion, unless none occurs. If large particles go through, they will clog a DPF if fitted, but you don't have a DPF code, so don't worry about that.
Likes g8rpi liked this post
__________________
13 years motor trade, 16 years motor industry. 17 years Driving Instructor & 10 years Fleet Trainer
Panda Alessi (2015 Skoda Fabia)
portland_bill is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 4 Weeks Ago   #15
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 3,772
Thanks: 213
Trader Rating: 0
chris3234 has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: EGR valve, throttle body or inlet manifold problem?

Quote Originally Posted by s130 View Post
That intake full of crud shows exactly why diesels are dirty cars.

On a normally aspirated diesel the intake would be far cleaner even with EGR. The problem with turbo diesels is that even a good turbo leaks oil into the intake air stream which is then mixed with the EGR soot and then settles on the cold intake surfaces.

How any government could back diesel for car usage where dynamic operation is required is a mystery. Politicians not properly researching, then being fed duff data based on out of factory data with no higher mileage/age data, etc. And if that was not enough the cheat devices cleaned up the act.
I wouldn't say a good turbo leaks oil into the inlet

I'd say it's more likely to be turbo engine have much higher levels of crankcase vapour caused by the higher pressure so more oiley vapour Gets rerouted into the manifold to be reburnt
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

chris3234 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Reply
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
(Tu) Uno inlet manifold+40mm Throttle body hame41 Cinquecento / Seicento 6 28-07-2013 18:49
Alfa Romeo Cloverleaf Inlet manifold + throttle body - upgrade 1.8 VFD Punto_Pete Auction Watch 1 25-06-2011 19:16
(G) 899 Throttle Body and Inlet Manifold goneleft Cinquecento / Seicento 1 16-06-2008 17:34