Technical Driveshafted

[Doofer]

This month's problem... the front OS driveshaft.

It started waggling* at 40mph a few months ago. So into our local garage it went. They got the driveshaft reconditioned by a specialist company elsewhere (new inner CV joint) and refitted.

It was fine for a bit, then it went waggly again. So back to the garage. The CV joint on the driveshaft (the reconditioned bit) had somehow shrugged off its gaiter and spewed grease all over the place. So it was re-re-conditioned and refitted.

Now, after a few hundred miles, it's waggling again.

Now the mechanic tells me he's used this company before and hasn't have a problem with them. My feeling is that we tell them to refund what they were paid and buy a new driveshaft instead.

I've read about the 40mph shake on other threads. I know where this fault is, as it's fine after it's reconditioned (for five minutes).

Is it possible that the driveshafts have been fine but there's something else wrong with the car that's shagging them all? Alternatively, is it possible that the shafts themselves are bent, so this is why it gets wrecked after being reconditioned? I'm struggling to understand this one.

Also, this is the wheel that was getting hot, which seemed to be the brake dragging. I'm still not sure about that either, but it isn't running hot now (at the moment anyway). Could a hot brake wreck a driveshaft? Surely brakes are meant to get hot? I would have expected the tyre to explode before the driveshaft got damaged - its CV joint is a long way from the brake disk.

The mechanic thinks that the Croma driveshaft is unique, not a Vectra one. Can anyone confirm or deny? If it's not a Vectra one then is there a chance it's a Signum one? I don't fancy Fiat dealer prices.

Alternatively, is there a discount Fiat parts supplier I could get one from?

We're almost at the tether end now - the other half wants to get rid of it. I just know it's a belter of a car when it works nicely, plus it's almost worthless to sell.

Help!

* "Waggling" is the best description I can come up with. When accelerating, it feels like it pulls left then right rapidly, so the car shakes from side to side. Passengers can feel it too. It's always at 35-45mph, only ever when accelerating. The harder I accelerate, the steeper the hill, or the more people on board, the more pronounced it is.

 

[dave]

The right hand side one on an auto 1.9 is diffrent to a vectra one. The vectra one splits in to 2 the croma one don't, i found out after about a week of trying to split it

 

[buster]

Thats the side that is suported by the bearing and carrier that mounts to the sump right?Is that bearing goosed.Or a problem with a disc on that side out of balance has it?Or an engine mount letting the engine sit low?
My bastards starting making grinding noises going around bends from the front hubs.Suspect wheel bearings,but i never use it and for some reason the disc edges build up in rust and scrape on the back plates.I hope its just that.

 

[tarquin1867]

Hello Doofer--- Well I did this to death on another thread, in my view the inner CV is an engineering nightmare, like if you ask directions in Ireland they say "I wouldn`t have started from here"?
To summarise:-
1- Refurb on this joint just involves a quick bearing change on the male part, the "spider". This looks like a three point star with bearings on the ends.
2- The grease which packs the joint has a profound effect on the "wobbling," both the type of grease and the amount- it has a spec and volume specified by Fiat although I recon any CV grease will do.
3- The rubber gaiter has an internal shape which matches the outer shape of the female section of the joint- known as the "tulip" for obvious reasons. Not getting this seated properly or not far enough on the tulip will result in the problem you had with the gaiter coming off the end and all the grease being deposited on the engine undershield and surrounding area.
4- Before paying out for any new/refurb shafts it is always worth repacking the CV with the correct amount of grease, you could find it saves you £000s

My new shaft was compared the the "wobbly one" side by side and the measurements by micrometer& vernier were no different and the play in the bearings was only a few thous different. When it was changed we didnt know about the effect of the grease/amount and it was packed with what my mechanic thought was enough grease but it was still wobbling on a road test. He knew some mates who worked for Vauxhall who put him on the right track, repacked with the right grease/amount all but stopped the wobble on the next test drive.
They also recommend the use of a new jubilee clip on the shaped end of the gaiter as the originals were meant as one trip only but can be used again but are not as secure on subsequent usage.

 

[2bakedbeans]

If its any consolation (and its probably not) our MkII 2008 Croma (in Italy) also suffered the same problem when touring UK. The righthand driveshaft was replaced under warranty in UK. The following year on another UK tour the lefthand one went. Took it to the same Fiat dealer near Portsmouth who this time couldn't find a problem – well it was now out of warranty! We took it our Fiat dealer in Italy and they confirmed it was faulty and offered to replace it with a reconditioned unit. Fortunately we have not had a problem since, with the car now done some 118,000km. There have been so many driveshaft reports that it MUST be a faulty component or simply adesign fault, not that Fiat will ever admit it. If you can stick with the Croma as the rest of it is excellent.

 

[Doofer]

Thank you all very much for the replies. I want to fix it as frankly the thing's almost worthless to sell but would be very expensive to replace - there's still nothing else comparable to a Croma for our needs: comfy cruiser with reasonable mpg and a huge boot/interior with the seats down.

I know who the Portsmouth dealer is - I've been there too for something else and wouldn't recommend them. They're basically a Peugeot dealer but one mechanic also does Fiats. Hardly specialised experts then.

So would it be fair to conclude that the sensible outcome is to give up on the refurb idea and get a new driveshaft? Is it worth asking the mechanic to re-grease it, taking along a print of the above from Tarquin?

If so then is there an alternative to a Fiat dealer? Or even a national mail order place that supplies genuine Fiat parts a bit cheaper? Or is there a Vauxhall equivalent?

 

[s130]

I wouldn't use that dealer either!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Driveshaft parts costs from Fiat will bleed your wallet dry.

Have you gone under that car and played with the driveshafts yourself? Pushing, pulling, rotating etc. etc. The reason I ask is that still may not be a shaft issue.

As for driveshafts contact Kimber Friction in Southampton. I've checked their online parts catalog and they list drivershafts but prices are POA. I have a long history of using Kimbers and no issues. Prices are pretty keen but not always the best.

 

[tarquin1867]

Doofer-- I have the training manual that was issued to Fiat mechanics who were sent to Italy to be trained in 2004 (pre launch) so they could pre delivery check the cars. I got it from E Bay for a song. It shows that the the grease spec is Tutela MRM Zero for the "Tulip" CV- amount 140grms and Tutela star 500 for the wheel end CV- amount120gms.
To have such tight amounts specified for each CV shows to me that they must have been thought about during design& testing for torque steer elimination. It is quite understandable that the grade of grease would differ when you think about the heat generated by the brake disc and the resistance to it required by the CV grease at that end. Incidentally the spec amounts for the 2.2 16v petrol are 150gms for the wheel side but 110gms for the Tulip CV, the types of grease are the same however.

If I new how to post photos of the pages I would as it will save me a lot of time on the keyboard for various threads I can help with

 

[Doofer]

Thank you, thank you, Tarquin.

I'd really like to have something original looking that we can wave at the company who reconditioned it.

Do you have a scanner (ideally) or digital camera. It's pretty easy to post pictures on here if you can get an image of it. Tutorial coming up...

 

[Doofer]

The image needs to be a jpg file type (the only practical one to use on this forum), and must be below 9.77MB (which is huge). If it's bigger, open it in Windows Paint and resize it (provided you've got a reasonably recent version of Windows). If you're using a Mac then I don't know how.

Click the "Post Reply" button at the bottom left, not the quick reply one that I was using last post. Then you get the full features.

After that, just click the paperclip at the top middle of the grey box, then browse to your jpg file.

Then press Upload.

I'd also be very very grateful if you could include a picture of the front cover or title page to show that this is the Fiat bible.

 

[Roberto Blanco]

Doofer-- I have the training manual that was issued to Fiat mechanics who were sent to Italy to be trained in 2004 (pre launch) so they could pre delivery check the cars. I got it from E Bay for a song. It shows that the the grease spec is Tutela MRM Zero for the "Tulip" CV- amount 140grms and Tutela star 500 for the wheel end CV- amount120gms.
To have such tight amounts specified for each CV shows to me that they must have been thought about during design& testing for torque steer elimination. It is quite understandable that the grade of grease would differ when you think about the heat generated by the brake disc and the resistance to it required by the CV grease at that end. Incidentally the spec amounts for the 2.2 16v petrol are 150gms for the wheel side but 110gms for the Tulip CV, the types of grease are the same however.

If I new how to post photos of the pages I would as it will save me a lot of time on the keyboard for various threads I can help with

Hi, if its not a problem, a full scan of the book would be lovely If its possible, or a hint from where to buy one. Cheers !

 

[tarquin1867]

The Training manual runs to 482 pages!! printed on thin card and is in a ring binder.
Best way to go is to keep an eye out on E-BAY as I saw one that was about to finish and could not get a bid in on time . So when the next one came up and it was in Doncaster I made sure I won the auction. £15-- bargain.

Although I am retired even I would not be able to scan/ post all the pages
Best way may be I can scan the odd pages as the problems arise.
It should be said this is not a repair manual, but it does contain a lot of arrangement diagrams wiring diags and schematics fopr the car including a rather fetching circular one with all the imputs into the engine ECU. Some are on E-learn, some are in the car owners manual also but those are like a first school reader

 

[tarquin1867]

I am out all afternoon but will endeavour to get get the pics you wanted up on here tomorrow

Thanks for the tutorial:worship:

 

[tarquin1867]

croma1 001.jpg croma3 001.jpgcroma2 001.jpg

First go chaps hope they are ok for you, I will do the other one you wanted Doofer if these are ok. As you can see the letters on the schematic sketch do not match the Key below it but its self explanatory anyway

 

[tarquin1867]

Hope these two will be ok for you DooferForum 001.jpg Forum 002.jpg

 

[Doofer]

Bloody amazingly brilliant, thanks. That gives us a few bullets to fire at the recon company - I have in mind that we should ask them how many ml of what grease they used - I'd bet it was a finger-ful of "the usual stuff".

It may be that the (very helpful) mechanic at the garage can empty/clean it and refill with the correct amount of the right stuff. I don't know how practical this would be though.

I'm still expecting to have to buy a new driveshaft though. I'll update the thread with progress - I doubt I'll be the last with driveshaft issues.

 

[tarquin1867]

Glad to be of assistance.
You can see from the photos that the outer shaft is thicker in the middle, I was told by the dealers where I bought my shaft that they have to be careful when ordering as there are different lengths and diam`s across the Fiat /Alfa range and they "often get sent a wrong one by mistake!!!" so it is not unknown to dealers then it can also happen to the recon men as well.
The parts are so well engineered that , in my opinion they are a disaster waiting to happen, the three bearings are ball races and in engineering terms a roller race would have been preferable as the forces are all pressure rather than rotary.
Another small bit of info is that my indi guy used a type of hypodermic to measure/fill the joint it had measuring grids on the side, he normally uses it to fill gearboxes etc with oil , used it with the tube on the end left off

 

[Doofer]

...and is yours now as smooth as silk?

Can you just clarify on your tale of driveshaft woe - did you get a replacement or a recon? Was the grease refill done on the new one or your old one?

I'm still finding it hard to believe that a few mls of grease can make such a difference. But that spec is very exact - there isn't even a range of values.

I'm wondering if it's like my washing machine. If it's full it spins fine. If it's half-full then all the washing ends up on one half of the drum, and the shake sensor decides it's too unbalanced to spin and gives up on the idea. In fact my Croma feels very much like an unbalanced washing machine - it's the same kind of effect. Perhaps it needs the grease to fill it so it's balanced, not sit in a lump on one side? This is probably way too simple a theory though.

 

[s130]

No amount of greese imbalance in volume/weight is going to throw a drive shaft out of balance. The mass of the drive shaft to just too high compared to the greese and diameter/radius and thus centrufugal forces are just too low.

However greese in the joint will have a dampenning effect as well as a lubrication effect.

What puzzles me about the tulip / spider joints is why are they being used? For many years the existing Fiat inner CV joints used on all previous large engine Fiats have proved to be utterly reliable. They are made with large ball bearings etc. and have an almost zero failure history.

I tend to get the impression that the GM gearbox and suspension system is just too week and floppy and lateral drive shaft movement so high during cornering etc. that having 3+ inch long tulip tunnels in which the spider can travel up and down was the only way they could get the system to hang together !

 

[tarquin1867]

Hello Doofer- Mine was new from Mangolettsi in Cheshire.
1)- Changed with new cv grease unmeasured-- still some waggle @ 40 turning right handed , (worse turning uphill to the right) but nowhere near the same , only really noticed it because I was looking for it.
2)- Found out about the quantity spec- cleaned out the tulip/gaiter ,repacked with correct amount of CV grease, Indi and me went .
3)- Absolutely no wobbly @40 on "normal " driving and only the very slightest on the 40mph turning RH uphill.

My indi has a theory that as I could only afford to change the outer shaft there may be a slight amount of wear around the open end of the"tulip" which would alter the fit/ clearance between the two parts but only when the joint is at its most extended ie going round a corner.
As has been described in other threads it only occurs when accelerating,not when you take your foot of and coast.
Most of the cars have been reasonably high mileage but mine started at 32000 and as it only has 40000 on now I count myself unlucky.
The difference between the correct amount of grease and too little was amazing and I would recommend anybody to get the joint repacked properly before going for a refurb or new shaft it could save wads of cash!!
As a clincher Vauxhall now do a check on the joint as part of the the service schedule at most garages which can include repacking the joint if there is evidence of grease leakage.