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Old 01-02-2010   #46
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

Quote Originally Posted by s130 View Post
Well the modern batch of diesel engines from BMW .... to Fiat all seem to be riddled with problems, all based around modern emissions junk. Swirl valve failures and ingestion followed by serious engine damage, EGR valve and inlet manifold clogging. DPF systems clogging up beyond retreival.

The latest on the DPF front (a major headache for many Vauxhall dealers) is that some cars are getting engine oil dilution with fuel. Customers are doing shortish journeys. DPF recycle is started but never finnished. Car then stands with excess fuel in the inlet system then over time drains into the sump. Customers check their oil level for low but don't notice a rising oil level apparrently. Eventually the engine is washed dry of decent oil and siezes.

Makes me mad. All the waste, precious metals, written off engines which all have to be replaced and all to be so called green. Wouldn't surprise me if the net polution due to manufacture and replacement of failed (which have to be shipped again etc. etc.) is greater than the reductions made in the first place. And guess who foots the bill.
This is one of the best posts i've read in a long long time and I couldn't agree more. Well said!
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Old 02-02-2010   #47
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

Interesting stuff s130, in fact it sounds like my car. We were doing only short journeys, and the engine was permanently in "rattly" mode. But your information did ring a bell, as I did once find that the oil level was too high. Do you know how the fuel ends up in the oil?
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Old 02-02-2010   #48
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

Quote Originally Posted by TMC Motorsport View Post
This is one of the best posts i've read in a long long time and I couldn't agree more. Well said!
Thanks for the complement but I guess I'm only voicing what many have thought if not already posted elsewhere.

I'm an engineer at heart and by training and politics has always been the final killer of all common sense. Sure we must reduce our contamination of this world but they that think they know and control what we can/can't/must be objectives never ever look at the whole picture.

Examples: Leaded fuel was not nice, but no where as toxic as the cancer causing agents from unleaded fuel that were never burnt off by catalytic converters on cars involved in short runs.

A singular industial wind turbine requires a massive concrete foundation. Go look up the energy required to create a cubic meter of concrete. Many of the earlier wind turbines produced will never offset in real terms the negative effects of producing them in the first place. These days things are better but pushing technology out before it is really ready is totally false economy and in many cases damaging at the same time. Make one, make two or three, prove the technology on ALL fronts (price, ECO, logevity, etc. etc.) and then create / dictate the policy.

Weapons of mass destruction v's technology of motor vehicle mass ECO improvement. The former appears to have never existed in Iraq's case (but we were led to believe they did etc. etc.) and the later is also riddle with all sorts of problems but still driven through by governments and politicians.

Often makes me ashamed to be an engineer.

Time to go to bed before I totally lose it.
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Old 02-02-2010   #49
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

Quote Originally Posted by Doofer View Post
Do you know how the fuel ends up in the oil?
I'm assuming it happens as follows:

When regenerating the ECU pumps fuel into the cylinder excessively and LATE in the normal combustiion cylces. This cause burn/excessive temperatures in the exhaust stream and by implication unburnt fuel in the combustion chambers. Basically the method is to set fire in the exhaust system and not the combustion chamber. This is all well and good if the engine continues to run as there is a continual throughput, and when the regen process finishes normal combustion continues and excessive fuel in the cylinders is exhausted or consumed.

However kill the engine mid process then the chambers are rich with unburnt, and more importantly no longer discharged/exhausted fuel. This I'm assuming just settles / condenses in the cylinder and then drains down slowly past the piston rings whilst the car is at rest. Only small ammounts I assume, but like money saving, little and often can amount to reasonable quantities over time.

I'm more than happy to be corrected / enlightened by anybody with additional info etc. This is all new teritory for all of us, and it would seem the car makers as well.

You have seen the adds, cars driven for 100s of 1000s of miles in testing and all reliable but poor old granny who does 1000 miles per year hits all the problems. She is one, they (as in higher mileage users) are many. Guess who wins and who loses.
Thanks Doofer thanked for this post
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Old 03-02-2010   #50
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

Car is at the shop...we will see what they say!
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Old 03-02-2010   #51
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

Car is back. The brake noise was claimed to be dust shields rubbing a bit. They bent them away and said it should be fine. I have not drove it yet so we will see.

As for the performance. They ordered a MAF (mass air flow) sensor. Should be in tomorrow. We will see if that fixes it.

Note: All costs are being covered under the 6 month warranty I got at no additional cost with the car when I purchased it.
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Old 03-02-2010   #52
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

The lower balljoint shields are a known Vectra issue, and the MAF is a known JTD issue - hope you get sorted out.
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Old 04-02-2010   #53
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

MAF sensor did not help the problem. After some talk with the mechanic. This weekend i'm going to remove the to electronic throttle blade (not sure of its proper name) and make sure its not blocked or restricted some how. If I dont find anything I will go back to the mechanic on monday.

Does anyone know the actual purpose of the throttle blade in the intake?
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Old 04-02-2010   #54
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

If you check the Alfaowner.com site you will find problems like the split rubber pipes on the inlet side, and a lot more. Usually check the EGR by disconnecting it to see if it improves.
Fortunately most of my little mileage is 10 miles minimum. I had to stop before my last regen, but it had been going for about 5 miles, on a 40/60 mph road.
Nick raises an interesting point, but I would think that once the oil warmed up a small amount of Diesel would evaporate. It takes about 3 miles to warm the water, can't say how long for the oil, but guess about double?
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Old 04-02-2010   #55
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

This could still be related to the EGR - the valve has secondary functions, it is used to increase turbo speed at low engine rpm by bleeding off some of the exhaust gases after the turbo thus increasing response, also it allows a certain amount of overboost into the intake manifold on the overrun (which is why you get an odd noise on automatic cars when changing gear at low engine rpm if the valve's sticking).

It's not as simple as being failed in the open or closed position, if it is sticking during operation it will have an adverse effect on performance characteristics. A common symptom of EGR valve problems is a loss of bottom end torque.

An extract from the air supply system test procedure on eLearn:

"Set conditions where the EGR valve is open and check that the intake air mass is between 20 and 40 kg/h"

then

"Set conditions where the EGR valve is closed and in these conditions check that the intake air mass is between 40 and 60 kg/h"

As you can see the EGR operation has a big impact on airflow.

Throttle body problems invariably put a light on. The swirl valve actuator can be removed without too much trouble but to go any further requires removal of the inlet manifold. Generally swirl valve problems will generate a light on the dashboard as the ECU monitors speed of operation.

Also possible is what Keith has already suggested i.e. a split (or badly-sealed connection) in one of the boost hoses - it doesn't take much pressure loss to make a big difference.

HTH.
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Old 04-02-2010   #56
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

Final update on mpg after Angel Tuning remap

Several tanks later, average brim to brim hs ben 48.2 mpg in very mixed town and motorway driving including 4 weeks of very sub-zero weather. Very happy with driveability although EGR is rearing its sooty head again!

Just out of warranty (4 year). Final in warranty service granted me a new steering rack as a tie rod had commenced making noise . They are integral to the rack (strange) so whole unit had to be replaced by FIAT!! Grazie!
My anti roll bar bushings? are groaning over speed ramps and are supposed normal wear and tear so I wonder is there a simple fix? I know that my Multiplas had similar issues and I think there were synthetic bushes available.
Still very happy with car and with new main dealers here in Limerick but will have to dust my toolbox off now as 80euros per hour and this forum will bring me a long way.
Bring on the Swarfega
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Old 05-02-2010   #57
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

Spent some more time trouble shooting today. Since I thought I had ruled out the EGR valve buy removing it, cleaning it and making sure it was not stuck open. I moved on and did more research. I had decided the problem could have something to do with the turbo and the variable veins in the turbo. First thing I did was unhook the vacuum tube from the outlet side of the boost control valve. The effect was no boost at all(note I have a boost gauge and with no vacuum making it to the turbo I had zero boost). So my assumption is that the variable veins are normally closed. Then I hooked the vacuum tubes together to remove the valve altogether. In effect giving the turbo full vacuum all the time. Which would actuate the turbo veins allowing the turbo to create as much boost as possible and possibly a over boost situation. The result was the same poor performance I had been experiencing. But I did get up to 22 psi boost at high RPM. So I felt I had proven the variable veins and actuator were working. Then I hook the vacuum tubes back to normal. Started the car then shut it off. I let it sit for like 30 second and removed the vacuum tube from the outlet side of the boost control valve. I got a release of vacuum and the sound of the turbo vein actuator moving. From that I can conclude that the hoses are solid. So basically I had found nothing. But was able to remove the turbo, tubing, boots valve and actuator. I moved back toward the EGR/engine stop valve area. I removed the plastic elbow from the face of the engine stop valve. The valve was fully open. I had my wife start the car. the valve stayed wide open. I had her rev the motor a little, the valve stayed open. I had her shut the motor off and the valve closed as the engine died. when she turned off the ignition completely the valve then again opened. So that proves to me the stop valve is working. Also while the car was idling there was a significant amount of air coming out of the disconnected intake pipe coming from the turbo. It felt like a hair drier when she revved the engine a bit. There was major air flow. Which means to me the intake track is clear. Anyhow, I decided to remove the stop valve and the EGR again. I found the intake inlet behind the stop valve to be really clogged. I spent a bit of time removing all the slug and soot from the intake. Unfortunately it started to get cold and dark so I will put it back together tomorrow. My guess is it will run the same. But time will tell. If that is the case im pretty much out of ideas. I feel like I have systematically eliminated all of the major parts aside from the fuel system and ECU. But im not going to worry about it tonight. I will deal with it tomorrow.

So that got long, sorry. But I did it in hopes it will help someone else in the future with troubleshooting or it would help someone else see something I missed.

John
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Last edited by jadento; 05-02-2010 at 20:39.
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Old 07-02-2010   #58
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

Car is back together and running normal again. All I did was remove the throttle stop motor(that I already confirmed was operating properly) and EGR valve(which was already cleaned). Once apart I cleaned up the inside of the intake and put it all back together with a block off plate on the EGR pipe. So the only changes were a cleaned intake(which was very very cruddy) and installed a block off plate. My guess is the cleaning of the intake was minor and the block off plate was the fix. I will run it a couple days with the block off and then remove it and see how it runs. If it runs bad without the plate I will order a new EGR valve.
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Old 20-02-2010   #59
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

I installed a new EGR valve a week ago and removed the block off plate. Car has ran fine since. The check engine light even went out on its own after a day or so.

I guess I am getting greedy but I went ahead and reconnected the tuner yesterday ; - )

When I had the clutch slippage the tuner was turned up to about 8 out of a 1-10 scale. I turned it back down to about a 5 just to see if I could get away wait a little extra power without any clutch slippage. If I feel any I will turn it down more. Cross your fingers for me!
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Last edited by jadento; 20-02-2010 at 18:05.
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Old 22-02-2010   #60
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

i've had no problems with my car as a result of the tuner device fitted and mines turned up to max.

i noticed the car does seam quicker but in my case if i drive it too spirited then it uses more fuel than without it installed.
if i drive normally i get an increase on the mpg.

i love the car, i've had it for six months and the only problems i've had is the flipping parking sensors and one electrical window problem.

it even only needed two side light bulbs for an mot with the 103,000 it's covered.
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