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Old 14-12-2009   #31
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

Sounds like clutch slip. With full torque at perhaps 2000 rpm you are over stressing the transmission, unless you alter your driving style, and don't give it the full throttle until perhaps 3000 rpm. you can overload the clutch and gearbox, particularly in 5th and 6th. Might be OK in 4th. Also take care to synchronise engine to transmission speed when changing gear, so that you don't heat up the clutch.
Is the DPF regen OK?
I had an Alfa GT and considered the remap options. Plenty of info on Alfaowner.com
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Old 14-12-2009   #32
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

Quote Originally Posted by DoIDon'tI View Post
With a manual gearbox car, revs rising without a corresponding increase in road speed = clutch slip. The ECU (or anything else for that matter) can't do this, it's a straight mechanical drive.

HTH.

Agreed, revs rising without a corresponding increase in road speed = Clutch slip. The questioning I have is could the computer sense the clutch slip situation and reduce power output?

Keithglos, As I mentioned in my previous post. I removed the tuner module, therefore removing the extra power causing the problem. I just drove to heathrow and back this morning and didnt notice any clutch slip. But I also cant say that I put alot of stress on it either. Time will tell,
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Last edited by jadento; 14-12-2009 at 13:13. Reason: added content
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Old 14-12-2009   #33
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

Quote Originally Posted by jadento View Post
The questioning I have is could the computer sense the clutch slip situation and reduce power output?
The only time the computer will intervene is when wheel slip/spin is detected, then the ASR is activated. If the ECU reduced power when clutch slip was detected then hill starts while towing could prove interesting...

If there's no chance that the car is spinning a wheel (unlikely in the circumstances you describe) then I'd suggest you start looking around for a replacement clutch - sorry. It might last weeks or months depending on how you drive but its remaining life is limited.

HTH.
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Old 15-12-2009   #34
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

This morning on the way to work I was merging onto the Motorway in the same situation I was noticing the clutch slip with the tuner. Today there was no noticable slip at WOT. The main thing that was noticable was...ughhhh it was alot slower!!! The tuner really woke the car up. Sucks to have to remove it. But im not trying to put in a new clutch any sooner than required!

OAN, Anyone bought Wiper Blades anywhere other than the dealer and also liked the performance? I have looked around online and only found a couple places to order them. Seem to be a pretty specific connector. I performed a search of the forums and didnt find much.
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Old 18-12-2009   #35
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150...and then removed!!!

Quick Update...couple hundred miles without the tuner and the clutch seems fine...still no slippage that I can tell.

I have however noticed that the fuel mileage is reading as allot lower(worse) than what the car computer was reading with the tuner installed. With the tuner installed and easy driving I could keep the average consumption around 42. Now without the tuner on this tank (still easy driving) the average consumption is struggling to stay at the 37-38 range. I guess we will see how far I get on this tank. If it stays above 400 miles on a tank the consumption is still comparable. That will be the real story teller.

Also I notice that with the tuner I was easily able to change gears at about 2000 revs and the car would accelerate fine without added throttle. Now without the tuner a gear change at 2000 revs bogs and requires more throttle to accelerate. Essentially now I am forced to rev to 2200 or more before shifting. Which is also requiring me to make or use more turbo boost. My guess is that's where the mileage has gone?

BTW...guess no one knows anything about wipers?
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Old 18-12-2009   #36
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150...and then removed!!!

Higher torque at 2000 rpm is your problem. It's up to the driver not to use the available power at the lower revs. FIAT have to protect the transmission from abuse.
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Old 18-12-2009   #37
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150...and then removed!!!

Quote Originally Posted by jadento View Post

BTW...guess no one knows anything about wipers?
Just ordered two new Fiat ones for my car, I tried aftermarket ones but they juddered. Genuine blades are 25 the pair, given that you'll pay 20 for a half-decent aftermarket pair then it's worth the extra 5 IMHO.

HTH.
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Old 18-12-2009   #38
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

Agreed, with the programmer its making loads more power... interest ling though its able to make more power efficiently enough that if you are easy on it, it truly is more efficient. Seems so easy to me to just add a heavier clutch and let the motor make power. I mean really. How much more would a clutch with a little more clamping pressure cost the manufacture? Especially if it would allow Fiat to tune the motor up (for free, cause its a progrmaing change) and claim more power and better fuel economy? Seems like a no brainier.

There is not doubt in my mind if/when my clutch goes and im forced to replace it. I will upgrade to a stronger one and reinstall my programmer.

I know what your thinking...if i beat on it with hard shifts or clutch drops with a stronger clutch I will just break something else. And you would probably be right....i would break a synchroniser, a cv joint, tranny gear, input shaft etc... but reality is im not driving it like that nor will I ever and I dont think very many "Fiat Croma" owners do drive like that. Its just not the car for that kind of audience.

Thoughts?

John
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Old 19-12-2009   #39
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

My previous car was an Alfa GTJTDM, so plenty of info on the remaps, dual mass flywheel, stronger clutch, 5/6th gear trouble. The flywheel is about 400, and acts as a shock absorber in the diesel. I agree we are less enthusiastic than the average Alfa driver, but you can cope with the extra power if you know how and when to use it.
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Old 19-12-2009   #40
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

Quote Originally Posted by jadento View Post
How much more would a clutch with a little more clamping pressure cost the manufacture? Especially if it would allow Fiat to tune the motor up (for free, cause its a progrmaing change) and claim more power and better fuel economy?
Not much, then they'd upgrade the flywheel, then the CV joints, then the gearbox, then the engine mounts, then the brakes, then the tyres, then the suspension, then....etc.

Most cars are designed with a set of parameters and load ratings for their components, starting with the engine then cascading down the drivetrain. Upgrading one component in isolation often affects others e.g. fitting wider / low profile tyres increases wear on suspension joints and bushes.

You are correct in your assertation, cars are built to a price and the manufacturers make sure the car will last for about seven years doing what it's designed to do - the problem with this is when an owner makes the car do something it's not designed to do, such as increasing power or towing a heavy load at high speed over long distances.

Most cars simply don't have the spare capacity to perform over and above their normal task, and the ones that can are invariably at the 'premium' end of the market (and no, I don't include Audi in that group). Fiat small cars generally fare better because they are lighter, they're not used for towing and performance gains are usually much smaller.

Every extra HP or NM produced has a cost somewhere down the line - it's just a matter of what gives up first. The car in its standard trim is fulfilling its design, if you want more power & torque then you either get a different car or accept that drivetrain components will have a shorter life.

I'm not having a pop at anyone, so please don't take any of the above personally, I'm simply drawing on my thirty years of vehicle / aircraft engineering experience. Ten years ago, a Fiat Brava had a 1.9JTD engine putting out 105BHP in a car that weighed 1195Kg. A Croma 1.9JTD puts out 150BHP in a car weighing 1530KG. More is being asked of drivetrain components than ever before.

With modern design techniques, you can be sure that every component in the drivetrain is 'fit for purpose' and nothing more - and its life will be limited...

HTH.
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Old 10-01-2010   #41
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

Three weeks since I removed the tuner because of clutch slip and clutch hasnt slipped or shown any signs of problems since. Hopefully it will continue to last!

No real results on fuel mileage since removing the tuner as the weather turned really cold. Ive been starting it a little early in the am and I also think mileage goes donw in the cold. Have to wait till the weather breaks to check it.
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Old 12-01-2010   #42
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

Quote Originally Posted by DoIDon'tI View Post
Not much, then they'd upgrade the flywheel, then the CV joints, then the gearbox, then the engine mounts, then the brakes, then the tyres, then the suspension, then....etc.

Most cars are designed with a set of parameters and load ratings for their components, starting with the engine then cascading down the drivetrain. Upgrading one component in isolation often affects others e.g. fitting wider / low profile tyres increases wear on suspension joints and bushes.

You are correct in your assertation, cars are built to a price and the manufacturers make sure the car will last for about seven years doing what it's designed to do - the problem with this is when an owner makes the car do something it's not designed to do, such as increasing power or towing a heavy load at high speed over long distances.

Most cars simply don't have the spare capacity to perform over and above their normal task, and the ones that can are invariably at the 'premium' end of the market (and no, I don't include Audi in that group). Fiat small cars generally fare better because they are lighter, they're not used for towing and performance gains are usually much smaller.

Every extra HP or NM produced has a cost somewhere down the line - it's just a matter of what gives up first. The car in its standard trim is fulfilling its design, if you want more power & torque then you either get a different car or accept that drivetrain components will have a shorter life.

I'm not having a pop at anyone, so please don't take any of the above personally, I'm simply drawing on my thirty years of vehicle / aircraft engineering experience. Ten years ago, a Fiat Brava had a 1.9JTD engine putting out 105BHP in a car that weighed 1195Kg. A Croma 1.9JTD puts out 150BHP in a car weighing 1530KG. More is being asked of drivetrain components than ever before.

With modern design techniques, you can be sure that every component in the drivetrain is 'fit for purpose' and nothing more - and its life will be limited...

HTH.
Hi DoIDon'tI,
I enjoyed reading your reply,it's good to see experience and common sence been put to print.
Croma owner for 4 years,and towing a caravan with a diesel 120bhp only.
No problems as yet...(touch wood)......,will listen to any advise you can give me.

Regards,
Gordon.
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Old 12-01-2010   #43
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

When you look at modern cars and the low prices we pay for them compared to the past then it is obvious that the makers have to bare prices and engineering to the bone. So generally they will produce a make and model of car that will generate a good reputation (reliability/performance/confort/etc) over a 10 year life span. For them the car to be fault free for 10 years and then packup is a near perfect scenario.

So, if they got it right a car withn X bhp, Y torque and Z factor will fail just after 10 years.

If you bump 150bhp to 200bhp etc. then in this day and age I would expect problems. The modern engineering margins in strength and cost are bared to the bone.

A Croma 150 clutch slipping on modest aftermarket 'boost' does not surprise me.

It really does annoy me though that thing is cut so close to the bone that there is no fun or latitude left in life to enjoy yourself and your possessions.
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Old 01-02-2010   #44
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

Update....Its been another couple weeks since removing the tuner and still no clutch slip. Thats the good news. The bad news is that in the past couple weeks I have lost 75% of the off idle to 2800rpm power. Driving down the M40 at 70mph in 6th gear if I floor it, it will literally take 8-10 seconds before there is any noticable acceleration. If I really want to gain speed I would need to downshift to 5th. Its actually a bit dangerous pulling into traffic at this time. I have done some reading on other posts and it seemed like my symptoms were perfect for the blocked/stuck EGR valve. But I took that apart this weekend and cleaned it out. It was a but dirty but was not stuck open. So that was not the problem. The next thing people have found being a problem is the TSP (throttle position sensor). I find it hard to believe that as much because, I would think it either works or it doesnt? Strangest thing to me is that the car is running so poorly that its almost dangerous and I have no warning lights on?

I have an appointment for the car to go to a mechanic on wednesday. The appointment is for the brakes but he is also going to investigate the power loss.

I gotta be honest after 6 months of ownership im not greatly impressed with the vehicle. Starting to realize why I got what seemed to be alot more car for money vs the other brands! Having said that im not throwing in the towel yet. I will give it a bit more before I move on to something else.

John
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Old 01-02-2010   #45
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Re: Installed a tuner on the 150!

Well the modern batch of diesel engines from BMW .... to Fiat all seem to be riddled with problems, all based around modern emissions junk. Swirl valve failures and ingestion followed by serious engine damage, EGR valve and inlet manifold clogging. DPF systems clogging up beyond retreival.

The latest on the DPF front (a major headache for many Vauxhall dealers) is that some cars are getting engine oil dilution with fuel. Customers are doing shortish journeys. DPF recycle is started but never finnished. Car then stands with excess fuel in the inlet system then over time drains into the sump. Customers check their oil level for low but don't notice a rising oil level apparrently. Eventually the engine is washed dry of decent oil and siezes.

Makes me mad. All the waste, precious metals, written off engines which all have to be replaced and all to be so called green. Wouldn't surprise me if the net polution due to manufacture and replacement of failed (which have to be shipped again etc. etc.) is greater than the reductions made in the first place. And guess who foots the bill.
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Last edited by s130; 01-02-2010 at 18:33.
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