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Old 25-01-2008   #31
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Re: Croma 2005 Rear Tyre Wear

Well my local dealer did admit that their is a recall (5138) and that he thought they had done it at the last service back in May. I didn't expect to have to visit the dealer this month but the ECU warning light appeared 2weeks ago with the usual loss of power (felt like 0-60 in 25 seconds!)
They had the car for 3 days and said that the tracking had been adjusted using their new laser tracking facility and that the diagnostics confirmed that the air sensor had gone and they had ordered a new 'throttle housing'. This was fitted on day 3 and I collected the car that evening. It was so low on fuel that I had to fill up before my trip home. After several short and one long trip I noticed that the fuel economy has dropped to around 36mpg (usually get 42-44) and there appears to be a lot more tyre/road noise from the rear. Tracking or badly tuned, I'm not sure but it will be back at the dealers next week for them to check. The rear tyres are at 4mm and have done 12K.
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Old 19-02-2008   #32
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Re: Croma 2005 Rear Tyre Wear

Well as many have had this problem with the rear tyres wearing and even when the tracking has been done RE-Call. It appears that some of us are still having problems with excess wear to the rears.

What is this Rear suspention adjmt. about?

I saw Granvilleb & T14086 have mentionrd a service news for rear suspension adjustment(if required).
Could this be the cause of the wear on the rear tyres???

If so has there been a re-call of how does one get their car looked at for this possible adjtmnt?

let us Know????

SAM
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Old 03-03-2008   #33
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Re: Croma 2005 Rear Tyre Wear

Hi Moderator,

Whats this "rear suspension adjustment(if required)" that you mention is this the possible cause of our tyres wearing down?

Do all dealers know about this or do they have to enquire about the service news bulletins?

let me know.

Many Thanks

Sam
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Old 03-03-2008   #34
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Re: Croma 2005 Rear Tyre Wear

Quote Originally Posted by CALAMATY SAM View Post

Do all dealers know about this or do they have to enquire about the service news bulletins?
they are e-maled automatically to every dealer so they should be aware assuming they read their email
Thanks CALAMATY SAM thanked for this post
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Old 07-03-2008   #35
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Re: Croma 2005 Rear Tyre Wear

Quote Originally Posted by T14086 View Post
they are e-maled automatically to every dealer so they should be aware assuming they read their email

Well I'm totally puzzled by this whole rear tyre wear issue. The numbers (see later) do not add up and my experience is at total odds with what Fiat think the problem might be.

Before we get onto the Fiat opinion, I checked with a Vauxhal dealer. This dealer admitted that Vauxhals on the Epsilon platform did have a rear tyre wear problem with Bridgestone Turanza tyres however changing to Pirelli or other make cured the problem.

I've changed my rears to Kumho Ecsta Sport KU31 - 215/50ZR17 95W XL tyres. Note the higher load rating.

Back to the facts for my Croma.

Original Fiat info said that if you had even across the tread wear then there was no issue. I had mine checked at 10,500 miles and the treads depths were, Front 4-5-4, Rear 2-4-2. These suggest mild under inflation but even across the tyre wear.

At 12K service (11,420) we had, Front 3-5-3, Rear 2-3-2.
At 11,438 I replaced the rears with the above Kumho tyres. Also raised the tyre pressures to the top end/high load figure Fiat recommend.

Basic summary (as I see it). My rear tyres wore evenly across the tread but only lasted 12K miles.

I'm not at liberty to fully disclose what is in the Fiat Product update 5138 but the basic information is that tyre wear measured from the outside/shoulder tread to inside tread/shoulder should not exceed 0.3mm per 1000 miles. A handy reference table is provided that goes up to 20,000 miles showing 6mm to be acceptable.

Now this is where I have my problem.

I've done 12K miles with 2-3-2 mm. 2 less 2 = 0. So I'm within spec but the tyres only last 12K miles with EVEN ACROSS THE TREAD wear.

Also, given the accepted 0.3mm per 1K miles (6mm in 20K miles) limits this would suggest that with an 8mm new tread and 1.6mm legal limit rear tyres are not expected to last more than 20K miles.

Based on what I have on my car, I have no tracking or camber issues, have even across the tread tyre wear BUT the rubber wear rate is about 0.5mm per 1000 miles. I would noramlly expect rear tyres to last 35K+ miles. This is about 0.2mm per 1000 miles.

So I'm looking for what is actually really going on here. As my rear tyres are brand new any Fiat dealer can not really apply/measure the campaign critera. I've only done about 1K miles and measuring 0.3mm of wear reliably and accurately is IMHO (based on years of experience) not possible with any real degree of confidence. However in a few more thousand miles I should be able to more reliably measure tyre wear. I have the full campaign alignment figures and plan to visit a computerised laser full four wheel alignement system (such a used by Michelle Dever Tyres) for a full 4 wheel alignment measurement which I will compare with Fiats figures.

In the meantime everything does NOT stack up. If someone/anyone can explain then I'm listening.

Nick /////
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Old 16-03-2008   #36
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Re: Croma 2005 Rear Tyre Wear

Nick
I believe you are on the right tack with the tyre spec. The Croma was homologated with 205/55/16/93w with the 215/50/17/91w and 18 wheels as options.
If Fiat would just say we should use a higher speed and/or load rating I would be happy. I just want Fiat to admit they have a problem.
Having said that the towbar load is only 70kg which is low for a car of this size. I would have expected 75kg. So the backend must be load critical.
I look forward to your experiment results.
Granville
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Old 20-03-2008   #37
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Re: Croma 2005 Rear Tyre Wear

Quote Originally Posted by T14086 View Post
they are e-maled automatically to every dealer so they should be aware assuming they read their email
I have been to my local Fiat dealer hete in Italy he checkd the e-mails and said that there was only a news bulletin regarding the Tracking NOT the rear suspension adjustment, the dealer showed me the e-mail he keeps them all in a folder.

He insisted that there is nothing to be done the the read suspension. Having said this my tyres rear and front are feathering externally, so is it the tracking or does as you mention, the "rear suspension needs adjustment".
My local Fiat dealer does not have the machines to carry out the tracking so he sends all work out to a local garage.

I will find a Fiat dealer that does tracking in house and mention this "rear suspension adjustment".

Any one else been told differently about the Tracking or rear suspension adjustment????

I think this needs to be sorted out as Granvilleb mentioned he "just want Fiat to admit they have a problem" and come up with a solution for all of us that are FORKING out time and money on Tracking and tyres like never before!!!!
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Old 21-03-2008   #38
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Re: Croma 2005 Rear Tyre Wear

Well here is some data for you all to mull over.
This data is for the 1.9 JTD 16V, 150 Eleganze model, manual.
Data is for rear wheel allignment ONLY and comes from three sources as indicated.

Standard 0 = vehicle unladed & 8 litres of fuel
Standard A = vehicle unladed & full tank of fuel

1) Fiat Croma Workshop Manual - Jan 2006 - P/N:60448552

Standard 0: Rear Toe-In: +0.0mm to +2.4mm
Standard A: Rear Toe-In: +0.3mm to +2.7mm

Standard 0: Rear Camber: -1.3 deg. +/- 0.5 deg
Standard A: Rear Camber: -1.5 deg. +/- 0.5 deg

2) Fiat Service News 44.10.06 - Inlcuded with Product Update 5138

Standard 0: Rear Toe-In: +0.3mm +/- 1.2mm
Standard A: Rear Toe-In: +1.1mm +/- 1.2mm

Standard 0: Rear Camber: -1.4 deg. +/- 0.3 deg
Standard A: Rear Camber: -1.6 deg. +/- 0.3 deg

3) Protyre 4 Wheel Laser Alignment System

Rear Toe-In: +0.1 deg. +/- 0.05 deg. (+1.66mm +/- 0.75mm)**
Rear Camber: -1.5 deg. +/- 0.50 deg.

** coverted from deg. to mm for 17 inch rims - suggest you verify the maths

Now these are the measurements for my Croma on Protyre kit

Rear Left Toe-In: +0.45 deg. (+3.39mm)
Rear Left Camber: -2.4 deg.
Rear Right Toe-In: +0.05 deg. (+0.38mm)
Rear Right Camber: -2.6 deg.

Basically all but rear right toe are out of spec. The Rear Left toe I'm suspcious about as this is way out but I see no evidence of edge wear. I did gently clip a curb when turning with this wheel the other day so I could have knocked it out then.

Finally.

These are my rear tyres tread depths for Kumho Ecsta Sport KU31 - 215/50ZR17 95W XL tyres.

These are taken from outer edge to inner edge across full width of tyre.

Left Rear: 6.0 6.0 7.0 7.6 7.6 7.0 6.0 6.0
Right Rear: 6.0 6.0 7.0 7.6 7.6 7.0 6.0 6.0

The tyres have done 1800 miles. Say 2000 miles. If the wear continues at the current rate then I'll need new rear tyres by 12K miles again.

Notice how there is even tyre wear across the tyre but because the center of the tyres are wearing less this would suggest under inflaton. This is what I concluded for my last set of tyres so these a inflated to max load pressures. Fronts did/do the same.

In my cars case of excessive negative camber AND toe-in then this could account for/explain the uniform outer edge wear. Insides wearing due to the negative camber. Outsides wearing due to toe-in.

Enjoy!

Nick /////
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Old 21-03-2008   #39
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Re: Croma 2005 Rear Tyre Wear

Need some hints/info from the moderator as he appears to be a Fiat man in the trade

Fiat say that the bolts that are used for the track & suspension arms are STRESS bolts an must be replaced.

I note that Product Update 5138 lists only two bolts and two nuts that are required to be replaced. (51798591 & 517484744 respectively). However adjusting the rear geometry requires both rear crossmember and rear track control arms to be adjusted. This requires four bolts and nuts to be replaced!

Oddly, speaking to Protyre (part of the Micheldever Tyre Group) they, when adjusting Vauxhalls (also on the Epsilon setup) do not and have not been instructed to replace bolts. The computerised system of instructions for every car model does not indicate/require bolt replacement on the the Vauxhall or Saab 93 adjustments!

What gives. This is all very confusing. Fiat say replace but only list two bolts when four would be required. Others say no new bolts required.

What do you as a Fiat dealer do?

I'm used to Fiat "over the top" instructions, like setting a TDC sensor by removing the cylinder head

Any views/opinions appreciated.

Nick /////
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Old 22-03-2008   #40
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Re: Croma 2005 Rear Tyre Wear

Hi Nick
I have two letters from Fiat telling me my tyres wear is caused by towing a caravan. The last letter was from their MD.
So would you say the 95W tyres are wearing the same as the std tyres?
Granville
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Old 22-03-2008   #41
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Re: Croma 2005 Rear Tyre Wear

Hi Granville.

I've been doing some more digging and enquiries and found the following.

1) Very nice Vauxhall Service guy confirmed that Vectra 'C'/Signum did/do have a natural high rear tyre wear. There was a campaign to the rear geometry but did'nt make much of a dent in the rear tyre wear issue. Basically rears will probably wear at the same rate as the fronts or slighly slower. Would not give a mileage

2) He checked the actual Vauxhall instructions for adjusting rear toe and camber and there are no instructions to replace the blots. On lots of their procedures there are important notes when bolts are required to be replaced. NOT for rear tracking.

3) Spoke a lenght to a Micheldever tracking bay technician and he confirmed that they have never replaced bolts. Also double checked their adjustment computerised instructions and again no mention of replacing the bolts.

4) Commented on the Croma rear negative camber spec. as being quite high. In my case he thinks my high negative camber and excessive toe could be counteracting each other and hence my apparent even wear across the tyre.

5) SNAP! I tow a caravan as well

Are you saying that Fiat have done the campaign on your car but you still have excessive tyre wear? Also is the tyre wear similar to mine. i.e. high but fairly even? Did Fiat actually adjust your car or just say tyre wear is withing spec.

I've got to follow up with my dealer next week. I spoke to the service manger today and he said they do replace the bolts and were aware of the parts shortage/omission wrt bolts in the bulletin. A technician also confirmed that the two stage process is to check the tyre wear and ONLY if it is excessive, as per the supplied data (which only looks for ourside to inside differences), are they allowed to then go and make adjustments.

I'm thinking of going my own way and paying the 60 to get a full 4 wheel alignment done. I'm also thinking of largely ignoring the Fiat values and going for the extreme limits of the ranges. Basically going for near zero camber and near zero toe and then see what happens.

Nick /////
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Old 24-03-2008   #42
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Re: Croma 2005 Rear Tyre Wear

I have a 2006 150 multijet with rear tyre's wearing as much if not more than the front. I have been chasing the reason and finally I have been given the logical explanation by an alfa/fiat engineer with some 40 years experience on the Italian jobs:-
the car has a 'yaw sensor' within the stabilisation system which will apply the rear brakes when entering a corner at speed to improve the handling,stability by keeping the weight force evenly distributed to reduce roll. This is why, when manually braking into a bend you can feel the rear brakes become effective befoer the front. Minimum nose dipping is experienced.
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Old 26-03-2008   #43
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Re: Croma 2005 Rear Tyre Wear

Interesting suggestion/idea but I don't personally think that this explanation can account for the heavy tyre wear people are seeing. Also I've not read this in the technical section of the Croma Workshop manual, but I could have missed it. ESP (Electronic Stability Program) many of the Cromas, Stilos etc. have, like most other modern higher performance/price vehicles. ESP would not account for the tyre wear unless you are a very agressive cornering and last minute braker type of driver

Thanks for the info though.

Nick /////
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Old 26-03-2008   #44
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Re: Croma 2005 Rear Tyre Wear

Hi Nick
My car went in for a service yesterday and the dealer only did the three position tread wear check. I was told all was OK even though the tyres are wearing on the inside edge and feathering. They gave me a copy of their instructions and only when I got home did I note that Fiat talk about wear from H to H1. H as you know is the inside edge. The sketch shows that they expect the wear to be on the outside edge. The dealer is now asking "technical" what the instructions mean!
I will keep you posted.
Granville
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Old 01-04-2008   #45
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Re: Croma 2005 Rear Tyre Wear

Thanks for the update.

Earlier I queried the Fiat campaign needing to replace the bolts when adjusting the camber/toe, yet Vauxhall and others say it is not required or stipulated.

Well I reconfirmed with yet another Vauhall dealer and again with a reputable tracking specialist.

As a side note the reputable tracking specialists (two I have tried) have never come across or had to adjust a New Croma, yet they both recognise the Vauxhall/Epsilon suspension setup.

After my local Fiat dealer parts manager, who I have known for many years, allowed me to examine and measure the new part number bolt (P/N:51798591)I can confirm the following.

1) The cam head washer adjustment offsets have NOT changed. So the new bolt will adjust camber exactly as an old bolt would do. i.e. no range change

2) The new bolt seems to be a cost reduced version of the old bolt. No radial markings on the cam head washer. Also very flat head washer profile

3) The NEW bolt is a stretch bolt. Along the threaded section of the bolt are two (or was it three) longitudinal machined grooves about 2mm wide by 1 to 2mm deep. i.e. the bolt shaft material has been reduced to allow bolt stretch to take place.

In an perfectly ideal world one would I guess replace stretch bolts. However by nature of their design (from waht I have read) they have a reasonable degree of platisicity providing you don't over extend the bolt. In this case it will continue to easily yield and finally fracture.

I've paint marked my bolt positions so if there is any slow yield and resulting rotation and the lower track control arm moves up and down the I should easily see it.

Another interesting discovery is, as mentioned in the campaign bulletin only nuts and bolts for the lower track control arms are required/listed (camber). The upper arm (toe) also supposedly has stretch bolts but none were specified. As camber and toe changes affect each other both bolts should be change. Interestingly the Fiat dealer appears to only have ever stocked the one specified bolt. So, I suspect that they, like Vauxhall and tracking specialists don't change the bolts if they have none in stock to replace.

What I DO NOT KNOW is if the original bolt as fitted to the car (P/N:51749098) is groved or otherwise wasted to make it a streatch bolt.

I'll try and check on this. Basically means I need to locasted a dealer who has replaced the bolt and can confirm it's design.

I'll also try and see if I can sourced a Vectra 'C' / Omega bolt for comparison.

Enjoy

Nick /////
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