Technical 16vt Inlet Manifold Pipes

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Technical 16vt Inlet Manifold Pipes

alfa145

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I am almost finished with putting a 16vt engine into an Alfa 145, however I've come across a few obstacles.

2 pipes from the 16vt inlet manifold - someone on fccuk identified them as being needed for the fuel vapour release/control.
The 145 has 2 blue pipes in the offside wing/suspension turret area which I think are the ones in question.

The 2 pipes off the manifold are circled in green in this picture:

fiat-engine2.jpg


However, here comes the dilemma.

The 145 (facelift) is non-return fuel system, the 16vt is return type. I found one of the blue pipes that I disconnected from the TS engine fed back to the tank so figured I could use that as a return pipe, but now I think I need to put in a seperate return fuel pipe as the blue piping is needed for the 2 pipes off the manifold.

Can someone confirm what the 2 pipes should connect to, and are they vacuum or pressured pipes?

Also which connector on the fuel rail is the feed and which is the return?

Thanks
 
Yes Simon, I know... I'm AJ :p

I'm getting there slowly, not many people seem to either know, or want to help - though I am getting slow, eventual answers from fccuk. Started on the wiring now, shouldn't be long...
 
Yes Simon, I know... I'm AJ :p

I'm getting there slowly, not many people seem to either know, or want to help - though I am getting slow, eventual answers from fccuk. Started on the wiring now, shouldn't be long...


I didn't realise you were AJ, good luck with your question though. :D
 
excellent conversion idea (y)

why guess about these things, just look in the workshop manuals for both the 145 and coupe and then you'll know for certain.

if you cant find free copies of the manuals online there's always ebay for a couple of quid, although i'm sure someone on fccuk would email you a copy of the coupe manual.

i'm not familiar with the 16vT, but i doubt both hoses could be for the fuel vapour circuit. you would only expect to see a single hose joined to the inlet manifold for this, which should lead to a charcoal filter, and then another single pipe from the filter to the fuel tank. i've never seen two hoses going from the charcoal filter to the manifold on any car in my life, so i'm very doubtful that is what they are both for, but one of them must be. the other may be for the MAP, but i would be more inclined to think the hose inbetween branches 3 & 4 is for the MAP.

can you confirm if either hose has a valve where it joins the manifold? fuel vapour circuits do not have the valve here (its at the charcoal filter and controlled by ecu) but many vacuum controlled circuits can have a valve here so that would be a good clue.

your blue pipes sound like they are for the fuel vapour circuit because one goes to the tank (and the colour is a giveaway too;)). the one that goes to the tank should be connected to the charcoal filter non-valve port (in the wing on most cars). the other blue pipe should also be connect to the charcoal filter (on the ecu controlled solenoid valve), and then also connected to one of the manifold's hoses (one that doesnt have a valve, probably the thickest one imo).

then you'll need to run a new hose for the fuel return, from tank to fuel rail (use correct spec hose). and then block up the unused hose on the manifold (at least until you find out what it is for, either way i greatly doubt it would stop the engine working correctly unless it is for MAP).

EDIT: actually on reflection i think the second breather hose should be for the crankcase ventilation system because that is controlled by manifold vacuum and there are no other vacuum hoses that i can see (exccept the MAP hose between 3 & 4). so surely the second hose should connect to the PCV valve? if neither hose has valves on the manifold i would not think it matters which is which (since both crankcase and fuel vapour circuits have valves elsewhere and not on manifold).
 
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Thanks for the reply Jug, good guess but wrong unfortunately - for future info both of those 2 black pipes (marked) are for fuel evaporation.

The problem was that I was trying to make the 16vt evap system connect to the 145 evap system - which is quite different, so I swapped the charcoal canister for the correct one (for the engine) and after studying eper and the poor/limited info available on the coupe manual and the 145/6 workshop manual, it made sense. At last.

Crank case breathing is all nearer the throttle body/inlet pipes.

The bottom right pic is the charcoal canister from the coupe, it has 4 pipes coming from it! 2 go to the black pipes above, 1 goes back to the tank, and one goes to a 3 way valve circled in green in the bottom left.
 

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Not yet :( I am struggling on another pipe (to do with the fuel evap circuit).

The 3 way valve circled in green - I have 2 of the connections sorted, but it leaves one other, I can't find any info on where it should go :(

Once that's done I just need to make a bracket and mount both the oilcooler & intercooler and a run a return fuel pipe. I have now got a fuel pump from a coupe so adding the return is easy.

It's taken ages to get this far as I can only work on the car at the weekends as I can't often get to it during the week, it's at my folks place.

The latest dilemma is the hub/driveshaft issue which popped up at the weekend - the 16vt driveshafts don't mate properly to the hubs. I've got a set of 16vt hubs on their way, but then the brake mounting is different so I'll need a new bracket to mount the Brembos, and the upright mount is wider on the coupe hub which means I can't use the Alfa suspension :mad:

Then I just need to sort the wiring, which I've started on - stripped the engine loom from the coupe loom and have started to plumb it into the Alfa loom.

Then I just need to sort the CODE issue, which hopefully I can solve as I don't have the keys for the coupe ecu. I will virginise the code box and see what happens when I try and pair with the Alfa transponders, or I might need to use the Alfa CODE box to make the algo work with the Alfa transponders. We'll see...

But it's still a while off being complete due to time constraints, and the fact I'm buggering off for a much needed nice long holiday soon to Espana :D
 
sounds like you've still got lots of fun ahead. wish i had something like this to play with at weekends :(

problem with virignising the code box is that the ecu is already paired to a codebox, and unless you virginise the ecu it wont pair with another codebox.

have you thought about the possiblity of decoding the ecu so it ignores the codebox?
(reddy4bed can do it cheap for you if you PM him)

there may be a chance that you could seperate the coupe driveshafts at the outer cv joint, and then attach the outer part of the alfa driveshafts to them so they will fit the alfa hubs ok.
failing that you could also try doing it at the inner cv joint, using most of the alfa shafts with just the coupe inners.

i've seen it done before, although i've never tried it myself. i've been told that this idea depends on the 3 rollers from one joint fitting onto the spider of the other joint, but personally i dont see why you couldn't just use the rollers and spider from one joint and slot them into the roller groove on the other joint. i'd try both ways to see which is best fit.

you never know, the groove inside the spider may be the same on both shafts, meaning you can just swap them over easy peasy. since we're talking fiat and alfa i wouldn't be surprised if the spiders had the same groove pattern.
 
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just thought, for anyone who's wondering what bloody planet i'm on, and wtf is a spider or a roller, here's a nice pic (y)

42282036.gif


either you swap the 3 rollers over so you can slot them into the other half from the other shaft,

or you stick a different shaft into the spider and use the same joint parts.
this would be my preference, in the pic above imagine the top half is the fiat parts and the bottom part is the alfa parts. if the alfa shaft slots into the groove in the fiat spider, you've made yourself a shaft that will fit your alfa hubs.
 
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Haha we're on the same wavelength - exactly what I though about splitting the outer cv joint... this was the first thing I thought of. I split the Alfa one, nice and easy, but could not for the life of my split the Fiat one. The circlip was fully open but the outer portion would not move. I know it's a tight fit and the cut on the shaft is square where the circlip sits but I'm sure it was not the clip holding it, it was solid.

So after getting grease on everything (I hate doing CV's!), I measured the shaft diameter - the outer fiat one is a few mill bigger than the Alfa one, so it wouldn't have worked anyway :(

The problem with the inner shafts is the same but also the inners are different lengths.

I would imagine the inner diam of the spider is slightly larger on the fiat than the Alfa, I'm guessing due to the increased power it handles they made everything a few mill bigger....

Ah, I forgot the ECU held the code box ID, I'll dump the eeproms/procs in the ECU and see what's about. I've got a feeling the 16vt ecu is encrypted though so disassembly might not be so easy, and I imagine the CODE data is stored somewhere in the main proc/eeprom rather than on it's own. I'll crack it open at the weekend and see what I find.
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I'm not so sure the ECU holds info about the CODE - at least it doesn't on the M1.5.5 (alfa) ecu, as when I was playing about with it I virginised a spare CODE box and was able to go through the key pairing process no problem, and start the car using the original ecu and the 3 original keys but a different CODE box.

I was hoping the Fiat would be the same, or that I could just lift my key data from the Alfa CODE box and place it in the fiat CODE box. Both CODE1, but I think they use different algo's to store the key data.
 
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AJ get an entire coupe 16vt drive shaft hub and suspension set up from Carlt on the coupe forum, then you'll have the same set up as a coupe as your wish bones and steering rack will also be the same.

As for the fuel vapour I think you have that sorted but as long as the manifold hose is blocked it will run. I have no fuel vapour circuit, just the mulit function valve connected to a rubber hose ending up near the fuel cap.

Rich
 
Thanks Rich, I keep bumping into on 145.com fcc etc...

I've got the 16vt driveshafts, and the 16vt hubs I've got hopefully being delivered today from carlt.
Just leaves the upright/brake issue then, but that should be easily resolveable.
Hopefully...
Interesting to know I could have safely blocked the fuel vapour, I know very little about it/what it does/how it functions, thanks
 
Those pipes are part of the EGV circuit. Just blank them off.
Rich is right, just use the Coupe complete driveshafts/hubs.
Carlt is in Florida, so he wont be back for a few days. He will have plenty of stock i would of thought.

Andy.:)
 
Cheers Andy, Carlt sent the hubs before he went, I received them last week, the upright mount is quite different to the TS hub so I've found some Bilstein shocks from a coupe I am picking up next week and can use my FK springs.
The caliper mounting bracket needs some slight modification, nothing too major so will drop that off at the engineers when I get back.
Thanks :)
 
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