Hi guys,many thanks to all of you that posted on my cinq/uno turbo project thread.no updates so far as ive been so busy.
One of the things keeping me so busy was slotting the punto 75 engine into my daily runaround cinq sx(with full sporting kit-engine,susp,int etc...)
I used the 1108 head on the punto block with the 75 cam.I tried to use the 75 throttle body(ported to match the spi injector top section) but it suffered from a massive hesitation and the idle speed was so low it kept cutting out.
I was quite impressed when i took it down the road but the hesitation and stalling spoilt it,so i swapped back to the cinq throttle body!
Just been down the road and cant wipe the smile off my face.its wicked!!one problem though.it doesnt seem to want to rev out.it gets to approx 5000rpm and it feels like a soft rev limiter is cutting in.If you hold,it will gradually pull to approx 6000 but feels a bit like its missfiring but not as pronounced as that.
It was the same when i had the 75 throttle body on so initially put it down to that!
I did wonder about the fuel supply but i read that the standard spi should cope with the requirements of the 75 engine quite easily.
All the sensors and electrics have been swapped over from the 1108 (as that was running perfectly (and revved all the way into the red!!!)) to eliminate them,but no luck.
does anyone have any ideas??
steve

I think you are running lean and if you keep driving like that full throttle you could order some new pistons.

Thanks?!
I do know what running lean leads to!!!
I didnt mean that i try to drive into the red all the time.I was giving it some beans to check it all worked properly!

I would have imagined that if it were a fuel problem,it would simply get up to a particular rpm and not go any higher as opposed to feeling like its missing slightly!

So how can i confirm/address/adjust/fix?

Just a point worth mentioning.I cant remember if i changed the fuel pump from the sporting or if its the original SX pump!Are they the same fuel pumps i.e. pressure/capacity?
steve

The standard spi runs a 1 bar system, the punto 75 and all other mpi models run a 3bar setup, I think its just a case of swapping the pumps over, the turbo guys do a similar thing to my knowlege, I don't think its a huge job!

That will certainly lead to you leaning out hence lack of performance.

what inlet are you using? if spi throttle body i'm assuming spi manifold and thus the spi injector?

Could be something to do with the fact that the 1242s are limited to 6.x kRPM (think it's 6.5, but not sure) A Cinq 1108 is limited to 7.2kRPM, so be careful of that. Also, the ECU may still adapting to the new engine (if you've kept the 1108 ECU, which it sounds like), which can take a few hundred miles.

Would agree with that statement from my coupe knowledge. I have the wideband lambda attached to my car constantly, and after an ecu reset the fuelling is a big wobbly for a while afterwards. But i reckon as suggested above its likely to be a fuel pressure issue.

Ross

Just off topic slightly, but what are the benefits of the 75 engine over the 60 apart from the camshaft?

ross

h2ypr said:

But i reckon as suggested above its likely to be a fuel pressure issue.

Ross

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Hmm..........if it was running the P75 top end, I'd agree, but as far as I can make out, it's running a pure SPi top end with the exception of the cam. In effect, what we've got here is a full P60 engine with a P75 cam. If the rest of the engine's stock, then the standard injector should be coping fine.

h2ypr said:

Just off topic slightly, but what are the benefits of the 75 engine over the 60 apart from the camshaft?

ross

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Well, if you splice the wiring for the batch injection, you get an extra 3 fuel injectors Needs work on the ECU (remapping or do it properly and run something like Megasquirt). Needs a 3 bar fuel pump.

Apparently the P75 block is stronger than the P60 block.

The punto 75 block is stronger. There isn't much performance to be gained from the 75 engine, unless you convert to mpi!

At best with an spi system on a 75 blcok with 75 cam you may make around 65bhp without any other mods. To get the full 75 you need an mpi conversion. Unless you want to start porting and flowing, reprofiled cam, lightening and modifying the exhaust for more power etc.

JR said:

The punto 75 block is stronger.

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I have heard this many times on here, but can anyone check EPER for block part numbers of 1242 blocks?

Lots of people say 'this block is stronger than that block' but who proves this? Personally I think a lot of it is myth, perhaps for absolute performance tuning (and by that I mean race cars, not tuned cars) there is some need to look at 'stronger' blocks, but I doubt that a 75 block is any stronger that a 60 block.

Infact, for our little cars wouldn't the so called 'weaker' block be lighter and therefore better suited to what we want?

Thanks for the replies and sorry its taken so long to get back.
Its running the 75 block and cam.everything else is stock spi.

When i did the initial swap (with the 1.1) i used the 900 ecu to start with and i certainly didnt have any problems as pronounced as the one im having now!
Can it really take so long to settle in(ive done approx 120 miles!)

Is the 899 spi fuel pump the same as the 1108?

I realise im down on power by using the spi stuff,but its made a quite noticable difference and ,at the end of the day,this is my commuting car so dont need to go mental with it,i just enjoy trying stuff out.
I dont see how using mpi inlet manifold and having it batch fire from the spi ecu could make more power.surely the reason they can make more power is that the fuel is metered more precisly with the four injectors via the ecu.
steve

soozukisteve said:

Can it really take so long to settle in(ive done approx 120 miles!)

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Yeah, I've heard instances of up to 300 miles.

chaos said:

Yeah, I've heard instances of up to 300 miles.

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Generally its between 200-300. So need to wait and see if it levels out to be honest. Check your lambda and see if its caked with carbon or not.

Ross

Soozukisteve,

How easy was it to convert the 899cc SX to Sporting/ 1242 spec? Did you buy a complete Sporting and transplant the good stuff over?

Seriously considering doing this to my 899cc Soleil

balidey said:

I have heard this many times on here, but can anyone check EPER for block part numbers of 1242 blocks?

Lots of people say 'this block is stronger than that block' but who proves this? Personally I think a lot of it is myth, perhaps for absolute performance tuning (and by that I mean race cars, not tuned cars) there is some need to look at 'stronger' blocks, but I doubt that a 75 block is any stronger that a 60 block.

Infact, for our little cars wouldn't the so called 'weaker' block be lighter and therefore better suited to what we want?

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so the weaker block is better if someone wants to give me a CHID for a 60&75 i can have a look but i dunno if you should cross your fingers!!! knowin how crap ePER is.

i dont understand y you would want a 60 block. i mean to me id go into a scrappy find a 75 complete engine unit and just swap and change bits over easier than finding a 60 and a 75

surely a 60 block is only going to be like a 5kg difference over the 75 (if they do weigh in different) and unless your doin F1 in a cinq then whats the point?

i thought the blocks were the same just the bore was differnt like the wagons i work on the 7litr and 9 litre are exactly the same litterally bare the bore of the pistons the only tell tale if you dont know is the ECU sticker and the engine number

1986Uno45S said:

Soozukisteve,

How easy was it to convert the 899cc SX to Sporting/ 1242 spec? Did you buy a complete Sporting and transplant the good stuff over?

Seriously considering doing this to my 899cc Soleil

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To be honest,the initial transplant was a bit of a 'mare!I transplanted everything over from the donor sporting(minor write off bought for £140!) including the dash and wiring loom.The mechanical side of it was pretty easy,but the dash and loom caused me a few headaches,just very little room and very fiddly!
If i were to do it again i would retain the 900 loom and just extend it to fit(If memory serves me correctly,you just need to extend the starter and alternator wiring).

If you want to go straight to the 1242,(without sounding patronising!)you will need sporting suspension(slightly lower),sporting anti-roll bar,sporting(or poss punto!!)gearbox/gearstick and linkages/driveshafts,sporting exhaust(or certainly a link pipe).
If i were you i would keep my eyes open for a scrapper or write off as it makes the process so much easier and most probably cheaper!
As for the 1242 engine,I went for the punto 75(mainly because it was cheap-£60).I used the bottom end including the water pipe at the front of the block(i hear some are different tho!),the punto cam and pulley(some of the pulleys differ slightly in tooth pitch im told!).I addressed the front exhaust lengthening problem by bending the downpipe slightly(decided not to use the manifold flange spacer i had made as i forgot to renew the studs before the engine went in and the first one i tried to remove in situ snapped!!).
Everything else is 1108(head,inlet and injection etc).
I realise by sticking with the spi and 30mm throttle body i will be down on the 75bhp,but to be honest,its more than nippy enough now.I will look into that side of things later when i have cured my strange rev limiter problem!

To sum up.Go for it!if you are handy with the spanners I reckon you could swap everything over including the 1242 in a full days work if you get stuck in!Plenty of cuppas and a few fags might stretch it into a weekends work but its well worth it!

Just come up to 250 miles and it still behaving the same!!!!I might see if our engine diagnostic unit can pick up whether its fuel or spark later.!
steve

Ooops.forgot to mention you will need an induction kit as the block is taller and the original airbox fouls the bonnet.You can just about close the bonnet ,but its a squeeze!
steve

balidey said:

Lots of people say 'this block is stronger than that block' but who proves this? Personally I think a lot of it is myth, perhaps for absolute performance tuning (and by that I mean race cars, not tuned cars) there is some need to look at 'stronger' blocks, but I doubt that a 75 block is any stronger that a 60 block.

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The 75 has got oil spray jets pointing at the back of the piston, which the 60 doesn't have. The main bearing half shells are better and stronger.