Technical Gearbox oil change

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Technical Gearbox oil change

Good Morning. I recently changed gearbox oil for the first time. I use a push button that is used for outboard oil. Very comfortable. 1.5 liters went in until it came out. Leveled car.



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Good Morning. I recently changed gearbox oil for the first time. I use a push button that is used for outboard oil. Very comfortable. 1.5 liters went in until it came out. Leveled car.



638945604b89ff39c6d39bd5d0c4b1073c85e7e0202afa7665eb44d174bf8814fe2539d7.jpg


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Just a couple of observations.

I absolutely love your workshop floor! Has to be just about the most spotless one I've ever seen. Wouldn't be out of place in my kitchen or conservatory!

The bowl of oil is, I guess, the old oil? I'm trying to decide whether it's as dirty as it looks or is it just that the bowl is discolored and so making the oil look dirty - Gearbox oil usually looks almost as clean when used as when it's new - compared, for instance, to engine oil.
 
haha . thanks. when there are no repairs, he sleeps on carpet.
The oil in the container was dirty, but of course, it is the same as the engine oil change and it looks blacker.

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Just an update from me on this, as I have done my gearbox oil change now.

The oil that came out was very black and dirty (my car has done 87k miles). I guess the oil has never been changed.

But I was very surprised at what a difference it has made to the gear change. Much smoother, and whereas before it was sticky going from 4th down to 3rd, it is not now. And it no longer grinds when I put it into reverse.

So a job well worth doing, and with the right tools a very easy job to do.
 
Well blow me, I think that's the dirtiest transmission oil I've ever seen!

Do you still have it in that container? If it was mine I'd be "frightening" myself by carefully having a look through it for "solids". Usually discolouration in transmission oil caused by normal operation is due to minute dusty particles caused by wear to synchro rings. This usually imparts a "pearly" look to the fluid. Yours looks much darker, almost as if the oil had got far too hot and become burnt? It's difficult to get any sense of scale from your picture so was there plenty of oil in the box or was it quite low? If the level was substantially lower than it should be that might account for it as some components might be getting marginal lube and so getting too hot and the lesser quantity of oil would then find it difficult to disperse the heat.
 
Well blow me, I think that's the dirtiest transmission oil I've ever seen!

Do you still have it in that container? If it was mine I'd be "frightening" myself by carefully having a look through it for "solids". Usually discolouration in transmission oil caused by normal operation is due to minute dusty particles caused by wear to synchro rings. This usually imparts a "pearly" look to the fluid. Yours looks much darker, almost as if the oil had got far too hot and become burnt? It's difficult to get any sense of scale from your picture so was there plenty of oil in the box or was it quite low? If the level was substantially lower than it should be that might account for it as some components might be getting marginal lube and so getting too hot and the lesser quantity of oil would then find it difficult to disperse the heat.

Thanks Jock, yes, interesting that it was so dirty as I understand transmission oil does not have such an intense job to do when compared to say engine oil. I don't think it was low on oil as a little came out when I undid the fill plug. As for solids, I did have a good look as I poured it from that bowl into the container I store old oil in. I could see little strains of dirt but no solids as such. But I am amazed how better the gearchange feels now.
 
I wonder if it's dark because perhaps, at some time in the past, someone has dosed it with a "miracle" additive? When I was just a young innocent I was very interested in Molybdenum Disulphide - and, used in the appropriate context, I still am. Add some to an oil and it turns it black. Personally though I wouldn't be putting it in an engine or gearbox now a days.

Whereas I use a moly grease frequently to lube ball joints, sliding splines, CV joints - applications where the components experience repeated oscillatory movement. In fact I would advise against using it with ball or roller bearings (except in very particular high load circumstances which, generally speaking, are not encountered in cars) as the moly reduces friction to such an extent that the roller/ball may not rotate properly against it's race and develop a slight flat spot which will reduce bearing life: https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28632/use-right-grease
 
Goodevening all,

Can anyone tell me if the whining noise from my transmission is a symptom of too thin oil? There should be a SAE 75W90 EP GL5 oil in there and I put this one in.

Thank you all in advance!
 

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Goodevening all,

Can anyone tell me if the whining noise from my transmission is a symptom of too thin oil? There should be a SAE 75W90 EP GL5 oil in there and I put this one in.

Thank you all in advance!
We need more info on your vehicle to give informed advice. What model, engine, year of manufacture, etc. As far as viscosity is concerned I'd be very surprised if using a 75w85 instead of a 75w90 had any noticeable effect.

There have been many posts, and arguments, on the forum concerning lubricants for both engines and transmissions. We run a 2010 Panda with the 1.2 FIRE engine. Both the engine and gearbox in this are pretty basic so as long as you are using an oil of the correct viscosity you are unlikely to have problems. Not so long ago there was a big, and well founded, scare about using an API GL5 spec oil in a transmission where GL4 was recommended. The problem was that the GL5 contained an aggressive additive package - which had many advantages for transmissions which could handle it but which caused accelerated wear on soft, some call them "yellow", metals. So stuff like synchro rings, bronze bushings and certain selector forks. It could do serious and irreversible damage to transmissions which couldn't tolerate it. - I believe that now these additives have been modified &/or changed so this is not now such a problem - but it would worry me that I might get some of the older stock? I'm a bit obsessed with lubricants so I always buy oils which comply with the relevant FIAT spec. So for our Panda it's FIAT 9.55535-S2 in the engine and 9.55550-MX3 for the gearbox. So, as I've used FUCHS engine oils for many years, I use their Titan GT1 5W40 which they rate to the Fiat spec and Tutela Technyx - which I buy from S4p and which is the oil Fiat put in it at original fill, This add shows the oil spec: https://www.auto-ricambi.eu/transmission-oil-tutela-technyx-75w85-p15349/

I am sure that these older vehicles with their simpler mechanicals will probably tolerate more "general" spec oils but I wouldn't take such liberties with a modern spec vehicle. For instance my newer Ibiza has one of these small highly stressed turbo petrol engines and I would always use an oil which exactly meets the VAG spec as this type of engine puts a lot of stress on it's oil. So I use Fuchs Titan GT1 Pro C3 5w-30 which meets the higher VW 504 spec (502 is also acceptable, but a lower spec) The 504 spec is suitable for "extended interval servicing" but I change it every year - no extended service intervals for me! When the time comes to change the transmission oil - which I do on all the cars in the "family fleet" at around the 50.000 mile mark - I will be using actual VW branded product. Why? because I'm told this box is known to be intolerant of inferior oils and can suffer failure of the caset'd bearing assembly on the end of the main and layshafts and also there is a small needle roller bearing which can overheat and destroy itself, especially if the oil level drops. Consequently I check the oil level every service and keep an eye on drive shaft seals etc. I'm told that the genuine VW oil contains additives which are not present in aftermarket oils specifically to address this? Who knows if that's the case but as there's not a lot of oil involved and I'll probably only be doing it once in the time I own the car I don't think it's worth cutting corners just to save a "couple of bob"!
 
We need more info on your vehicle to give informed advice. What model, engine, year of manufacture, etc. As far as viscosity is concerned I'd be very surprised if using a 75w85 instead of a 75w90 had any noticeable effect.

There have been many posts, and arguments, on the forum concerning lubricants for both engines and transmissions. We run a 2010 Panda with the 1.2 FIRE engine. Both the engine and gearbox in this are pretty basic so as long as you are using an oil of the correct viscosity you are unlikely to have problems. Not so long ago there was a big, and well founded, scare about using an API GL5 spec oil in a transmission where GL4 was recommended. The problem was that the GL5 contained an aggressive additive package - which had many advantages for transmissions which could handle it but which caused accelerated wear on soft, some call them "yellow", metals. So stuff like synchro rings, bronze bushings and certain selector forks. It could do serious and irreversible damage to transmissions which couldn't tolerate it. - I believe that now these additives have been modified &/or changed so this is not now such a problem - but it would worry me that I might get some of the older stock? I'm a bit obsessed with lubricants so I always buy oils which comply with the relevant FIAT spec. So for our Panda it's FIAT 9.55535-S2 in the engine and 9.55550-MX3 for the gearbox. So, as I've used FUCHS engine oils for many years, I use their Titan GT1 5W40 which they rate to the Fiat spec and Tutela Technyx - which I buy from S4p and which is the oil Fiat put in it at original fill, This add shows the oil spec: https://www.auto-ricambi.eu/transmission-oil-tutela-technyx-75w85-p15349/

I am sure that these older vehicles with their simpler mechanicals will probably tolerate more "general" spec oils but I wouldn't take such liberties with a modern spec vehicle. For instance my newer Ibiza has one of these small highly stressed turbo petrol engines and I would always use an oil which exactly meets the VAG spec as this type of engine puts a lot of stress on it's oil. So I use Fuchs Titan GT1 Pro C3 5w-30 which meets the higher VW 504 spec (502 is also acceptable, but a lower spec) The 504 spec is suitable for "extended interval servicing" but I change it every year - no extended service intervals for me! When the time comes to change the transmission oil - which I do on all the cars in the "family fleet" at around the 50.000 mile mark - I will be using actual VW branded product. Why? because I'm told this box is known to be intolerant of inferior oils and can suffer failure of the caset'd bearing assembly on the end of the main and layshafts and also there is a small needle roller bearing which can overheat and destroy itself, especially if the oil level drops. Consequently I check the oil level every service and keep an eye on drive shaft seals etc. I'm told that the genuine VW oil contains additives which are not present in aftermarket oils specifically to address this? Who knows if that's the case but as there's not a lot of oil involved and I'll probably only be doing it once in the time I own the car I don't think it's worth cutting corners just to save a "couple of bob"!
Dear PuggIt,

I’ve got a ‘98 Sei with the 0.9L engine, engine code 1170A1.046 with the 5 speed manual, if it already came with another tranny in the first place😅.

Looking forward to your reply!

PS. I’ve got major plans with my rear axle as in rust prevention. If you’d like too know, just let me know, I’ll send you a PM (just as any other person who’d like too know)😅😬
 
If the whine in the transmission has started immediately after the oil change, then the oil could be a factor. If that is the case, get some Fiat Tutela oil and change it. Then do it again after a few weeks, to get more of the residue out.
If the whine was already there, the oil will be less relevant. All gearboxes wear, and whine is the usual result, most will shine for a very long time before any failure occurs. Of course, the type of whine tells a story, and woould need someone experienced to listen to it to tell if it was just wear, or imminent danger. My Panda is now on 85k miles (137,000 kilometres). The gearbox whines a little, due to wear, but nothing shouts failure at me. (Thanks for the reminder, I must look at when I last changed the oil in it.)

Best advice, get a local experienced mechanic to drive and listen to it. A video recording posted on here is unlikely to be conclusive.
 
Looked your vehicle up on some of the oil finders, Opie is one of my favourites, and they give us this: https://www.opieoils.co.uk/f/706233/1471/1998/gearbox-oil.aspx The Motul says it's suitable GL4/GL5 so I'm presuming it's one of the latest spec GL5 with the modified additive package so it's less damaging to Yellow metals? The Castrol is a GL4+ This is an interesting spec identification number as GL4+ is not actually quoted on the American Petroleum Institute listing? My guess is that it's a GL4 enhanced to nearer a GL5? So maybe very similar to the new GL5 spec but because GL5 got a bad name for damaging older gearboxes they decided not to "spook the horses" by designating it GL5? Who knows!

In your position I'd suggest giving the very helpful people at Shop4parts: https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/ a ring. They are very knowledgeable about almost anything to do with Fiat "stuff" and you can absolutely 100% trust what they tell you. I'm sure they would be able to supply you with the original Fiat spec'd Tutela oil

I'm absolutely ashamed to say I've still done nothing about tackling the rust on Becky's rear axle and I think it's reaching the stage now where I may be better to just keep a close eye on it for obvious failure of the spring pans and buy one of IM Axles replacement jobbies when the time comes. Most of the axle is actually quite reasonable but the spring pans, especially the O/S one have big flaky slivers of rust now which you can chip off in pieces somewhat bigger than a 50p piece! I have to do a "big" service on my Ibiza very soon - her dash display keeps counting down to it, 7 days from now as of this morning! - Once that's done I'm going to have a really good go at Becky as I only did a "wee" service on her last year (oil and filter change and a good look over) I would normally do more than this but other family/living events took precedence. That means this year all the filters will be changed, brakes dismantled, pads cleaned up and antiseize applied and a whole host of other general maintenance items attended to. Used to do this in a day easily, now it's more likely to take me a day and a half.

I'd be very interested to hear about what you're going to do with your back axle, but why not just post it here on the forum so we can all benefit? I was just thinking back to our old 1992 Panda Parade which we had in the family for over 20 years (the purple car in my avatar picture). It had the tubular "Omega" rear axle which was just about as rust free when I sold her as when I bought her! In fact, apart from the body/chassis rust which was a constant battle, that car (Felicity we called her) was very easy to look after. The friction type rear shoe adjusters and hand brake were a poor design until I modified the handbrake. Wish I still had her! Strangely I'm not a fan of sunroofs and she had twin fabric sunroofs which rotted and I vowed I'd never have another. So what did we replace her with? Becky of course, who has the optional retracting glass sunroof which, if it goes wrong, will be a real load of bother to sort out. Will I never learn?

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In fact we are both - Mrs J and I - agreed that the glass roof is rather nice but we very rarely open it so I'm not really bothered if it opens or not. We probably should just leave it permanently closed.
 
Goodday Puggit,

Lovely car, your little Felicity, you mean the Omega rear axle which is just a round steel tube bent too shape and pivots right in the middle underneeth the car? I thought it was a solid axle and the car was also used in rally racing?

Well, my plans with my rear axle are too completely demount it, take it all apart, put new trailingarm bushes in it since the old one’s are toast and are already knocking, get it sandblasted and then put a nice layer of 2 component paint on it, so it won’t rust again, then there’s going another glob of paint on it, followed by tectyl a sort of rubberish layer which prevents paint from chipping of due too getting hit by little bits of broken off asphalt.

Hope too hear from you soon!
 
Goodday Puggit,

Lovely car, your little Felicity, you mean the Omega rear axle which is just a round steel tube bent too shape and pivots right in the middle underneeth the car? I thought it was a solid axle and the car was also used in rally racing?

Well, my plans with my rear axle are too completely demount it, take it all apart, put new trailingarm bushes in it since the old one’s are toast and are already knocking, get it sandblasted and then put a nice layer of 2 component paint on it, so it won’t rust again, then there’s going another glob of paint on it, followed by tectyl a sort of rubberish layer which prevents paint from chipping of due too getting hit by little bits of broken off asphalt.

Hope too hear from you soon!
Hello again. Just for your info, it's puggLt - with an L. (means Old, worn out, exhausted, etc) not that I'm "sensitive" about it so no worries. Yes, earlier versions had a straight tube axle mounted on leaf springs (The SEAT Marbella was one car I worked on which used this axle although I've never seen the setup on an actual Fiat !) Felicity did indeed have the tube axle which was bent in a big "U" shape with a large rubber mount under the back seat and coil springs. I remember being "terrified" to read, in the Haynes manual, that if that big central rubber mount was worn then the whole axle had to be replaced! Luckily mine never gave any trouble so I didn't have to investigate whether a repair was possible. - Phew!

Regarding your rear axle refurb. Someone - sorry I forget who - has mentioned here on our forum about getting rear axles Zinc sprayed. Sounds like a good process and not to terribly expensive (I think he talked about somewhere around £80?) Maybe he'll see this and comment?

I'm off now to the library to hand books back before I get fined so I'll not look back on here 'till this evening - don't have a smart phone so do all this on my laptop.
 
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Hello again. Just for your info, it's puggLt - with an L. (means Old, worn out, exhausted, etc) not that I'm "sensitive" about it so no worries. Yes, earlier versions had a straight tube axle mounted on leaf springs (The SEAT Marbella was one car I worked on which used this axle although I've never seen the setup on an actual Fiat !) Felicity did indeed have the tube axle which was bent in a big "U" shape with a large rubber mount under the back seat and coil springs. I remember being "terrified" to read, in the Haynes manual, that if that big central rubber mount was worn then the whole axle had to be replaced! Luckily mine never gave any trouble so I didn't have to investigate whether a repair was possible. - Phew!

Regarding your rear axle refurb. Someone - sorry I forget who - has mentioned here on our forum about getting rear axles Zinc sprayed. Sounds like a good process and not to terribly expensive (I think he talked about somewhere around £80?) Maybe he'll see this and comment?

I'm off now to the library to hand books back before I get fined so I'll not look back on here 'till this evening - don't have a smart phone so do all this on my laptop.
goodday PuggLt,

Oh, oops, I’m very sorry, a regular L and a capital I look quite a lot like each other, if you know what I mean!😅

I have heard about galvanizing steel, but this isn’t always possible, the product has to be free of airpockets, because galvanizing steel happens at high temperature, if air is trapped inside for example a steel tube, the tube can explode due to the air wanting to expand but not being able too. And since the sides of the rear suspension crossmember from the Fiat Seicento are closed, there will be air inside which can’t expand… this will be a deathtrap from the top shelf.

Kind regards!
 
I'm off now to the library to hand books back before I get fined so I'll not look back on here 'till this evening - don't have a smart phone so do all this on my laptop.
Oh well, forgot it's a bank holiday isn't it! So library not open! Never mind, went round the long way by the weir and turned it into a nice walk. Now the sun is shining and I'm going to sit in my garden with a cup of tea and a Bakewell tart!
 
goodday PuggLt,

Oh, oops, I’m very sorry, a regular L and a capital I look quite a lot like each other, if you know what I mean!😅

I have heard about galvanizing steel, but this isn’t always possible, the product has to be free of airpockets, because galvanizing steel happens at high temperature, if air is trapped inside for example a steel tube, the tube can explode due to the air wanting to expand but not being able too. And since the sides of the rear suspension crossmember from the Fiat Seicento are closed, there will be air inside which can’t expand… this will be a deathtrap from the top shelf.

Kind regards!
Yes, you are talking about hot dip galvanizing there. I believe this chap discovered a metal spraying procedure so rather different?

Ps. don't worry about the l(L) as I said, I'm not fussy about it.
 
Hello Pugglt,

Oh, then I unfortunately don’t know what you mean. But I think I’ll go for the sandblasting and 2 component paint, I already got a price for how much it’s going to cost me. But do you perhaps know how I can remove the 24 year old pressed in trailingarm bushes? They are pressed in at the two top mountingpoints shown in the picture, but they are stuck there since 1998…😅

Kind regards.
 

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They look like typical "Metalastic" type bushes. So a tubular metal outer which is a very tight push (interference) fit in the arm, then rubber and a smaller diameter metal bush in the middle? Sometimes you can punch them out but it's very hard going and often they won't shift with simply a hammer and punch. If you don't have access to a hydraulic press then I find burning out the rubber so you can remove the smaller central bush will give you room to feed a hacksaw blade through the middle so you can carefully cut a slot into the outer metal tube - be very careful not to cut into the arm and weaken it. If you stop sawing just before breaking through the outer bush metal then you can use a chizel to turn up the edge of the cut which will release the hold of the outer bush on the hole it's been pressed into and you can then tap it out with a hammer and drift quite easily. The new bush can be pressed back in with a suitable diameter socket resting on the outer diameter of the bush while you squeeze it in with a nice big vice. If you don't have a vice you might manage it with a stout threaded rod through the middle with large washers on the end. If you try it with a hammer you'll need a pretty big hefty hammer and you're more likely to do "collateral" damage - but it's doable, sometimes? Might be worth asking your local garage if they'd do it. It's usually not a bad job to do if you have a press and selection of spacers so cost shouldn't be crippling.
 
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