Register Login
Lamps by Post - For all your lighting needs
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 13-04-2018   #1
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 14
Thanks: 1
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Poorly Schumacher

background info,

lost a core plug and severely overheated, resulting in headgasket failure,
head skimmed and fitted with new cambelt w/pump kit

engine hard to start but when started would not rev above 2400, and very lumpy/misfiring,
compression is 190 on all cylinders
fuel pump working,

so far have changed/this week
Crank sensor
Cam sensor
plugs/leads/coils
knock sensor
lambda
sent ecu away for test, came back clean

problem= no spark,

it did try to fire but not now just spins

where do I go now please,

Alan,
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

gl1200 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 13-04-2018   #2
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,785
Thanks: 123
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Poorly Schumacher

-ve lead from battery.
Often looks ok but corroded away internally.
Likes gl1200 liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

jackwhoo is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 13-04-2018   #3
Stick your own title
 
mrcinquecento's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dundee
Posts: 1,627
Thanks: 78
Trader Rating: 0
mrcinquecento has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Poorly Schumacher

All the earths attached? (particularly the one on the rear of the coil pack)
Thanks gl1200 thanked for this post
__________________
www.fiat-scotland.com,the home of all things both scottish and italian. it's a bit like having an irn bru with your pizza, only much tastier

98 Fiat Cinquecento Sporting 16v, 94 Land Rover Discovery 300tdi
mrcinquecento is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 14-04-2018   #4
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 14
Thanks: 1
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Poorly Schumacher

thanks for replies,

battery leads and body earths all cleaned refitted,

cannot find an earth lead on back of coil pack,(dont think it has 1)

today's update,
reconnected battery & got spark(very weak)
tried to start engine, it tried but would not catch, then started spinning as though no spark (again)

1 fault code P385 crankshaft position sensor circuit malfunction, code will clear then reappears (twice)

replaced crank sensor, back to no fireing/starting

no fault codes,

its looking like a bonfire may be coming,

Alan,


__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

gl1200 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 14-04-2018   #5
Stick your own title
 
mrcinquecento's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dundee
Posts: 1,627
Thanks: 78
Trader Rating: 0
mrcinquecento has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Poorly Schumacher

Quote Originally Posted by gl1200 View Post
thanks for replies,

battery leads and body earths all cleaned refitted,

cannot find an earth lead on back of coil pack,(dont think it has 1)

today's update,
reconnected battery & got spark(very weak)
tried to start engine, it tried but would not catch, then started spinning as though no spark (again)

1 fault code P385 crankshaft position sensor circuit malfunction, code will clear then reappears (twice)

replaced crank sensor, back to no fireing/starting

no fault codes,

its looking like a bonfire may be coming,

Alan,


It has one, they all do. it's going to be hanging down the back of the block somewhere.

When that's not connected, it causes all sorts of spark/immobilisation issues.
Thanks gl1200 thanked for this post
__________________
www.fiat-scotland.com,the home of all things both scottish and italian. it's a bit like having an irn bru with your pizza, only much tastier

98 Fiat Cinquecento Sporting 16v, 94 Land Rover Discovery 300tdi
mrcinquecento is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 15-04-2018   #6
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 14
Thanks: 1
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Poorly Schumacher

Quote Originally Posted by mrcinquecento View Post
It has one, they all do. it's going to be hanging down the back of the block somewhere.

When that's not connected, it causes all sorts of spark/immobilisation issues.
Thanks for the info, pulled all the wiring back to the nearside, and deffo no earth from coil pack area, even looked inside the plastic tubing in case it had been tucked away but no wire,

I dont understand the need for it when the main engine earth is on the G/box to body,

going to get another crank sensor and try that,

please keep suggesting things as I could have missed something,
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

gl1200 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 15-04-2018   #7
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 14
Thanks: 1
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Poorly Schumacher

right been studying the wiring diagrams, and as suggested theres seems to be an engine earth labelled as C40, so will have another look in morning, I, m grasping at straws here but as it got stinking hot wonder if its melted, as I did not remove 1 when I took head off and stripped down, and it was running very rough when it got home,(I wasn't driving)
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

gl1200 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 15-04-2018   #8
Stick your own title
 
mrcinquecento's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dundee
Posts: 1,627
Thanks: 78
Trader Rating: 0
mrcinquecento has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Poorly Schumacher

It's honestly a tiny wire, thin gauge with a small looped terminal that is meant to be bolted to the bracket the coil packs sit in. Until that's found then we're banging our heads off a brick wall because it's likely either the source or a huge contributory factor to your issue.

It's been a few years since i was properly in about cento wiring, And the last time i was, it was doing my 16v conversion from an SPI loom, last time i even saw an MPI loom was dismantling on about 6 months before that, but i just had a look at a pic too see if i could spot what it sprouts off of, it's hard to orientate it when it's not in the car, but... i think if you go to the inlet manifold, passenger side, there should be a large green sensor (i think it's green on an MPI) with a big fat black plug on it, if you run your hand down that wire from that plug a few inches you should reach a Y split, where, sprouting off the other way is a thin wire, that's it.

Thanks gl1200 thanked for this post
__________________
www.fiat-scotland.com,the home of all things both scottish and italian. it's a bit like having an irn bru with your pizza, only much tastier

98 Fiat Cinquecento Sporting 16v, 94 Land Rover Discovery 300tdi
mrcinquecento is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 16-04-2018   #9
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 14
Thanks: 1
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Poorly Schumacher

Quote Originally Posted by mrcinquecento View Post
It's honestly a tiny wire, thin gauge with a small looped terminal that is meant to be bolted to the bracket the coil packs sit in. Until that's found then we're banging our heads off a brick wall because it's likely either the source or a huge contributory factor to your issue.

It's been a few years since i was properly in about cento wiring, And the last time i was, it was doing my 16v conversion from an SPI loom, last time i even saw an MPI loom was dismantling on about 6 months before that, but i just had a look at a pic too see if i could spot what it sprouts off of, it's hard to orientate it when it's not in the car, but... i think if you go to the inlet manifold, passenger side, there should be a large green sensor (i think it's green on an MPI) with a big fat black plug on it, if you run your hand down that wire from that plug a few inches you should reach a Y split, where, sprouting off the other way is a thin wire, that's it.

thanks for the help, have readjusted your pic to what I have, and there is is no earth wire on the MPI At least not this one

yet my neighbours panda has one coming out of the plastic injector sleeve, above no2 cyl,

so today stripped the wire out of the plastic sleeve and did continuity checks to all sensors/plugs, back to ECU all good, no breaks, dry joints. taped it back up and we have a spark, but no firing at all not even a cough, just spinning over,

so removed fuel line to injectors, turn key to mar and it pumps for about 2 sec;s 1/4 ltr fuel, if i try to start no fuel comes out of pipe,

so repeat 1st part several times and just get the 2 sec squirt, is this right as i would have thought the pump would continue to run,

at the tank end it reads 5v on supply,
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	mpiloom.jpg
Views:	9
Size:	762.9 KB
ID:	189972  
Thanks mrcinquecento thanked for this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

gl1200 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 16-04-2018   #10
Stick your own title
 
mrcinquecento's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dundee
Posts: 1,627
Thanks: 78
Trader Rating: 0
mrcinquecento has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Poorly Schumacher

Thanks for the tags on the pic, like i said it's different to orientate it out the car and not being super familiar with the MPI, there's a lot of comparing back to what i know for sure the SPI has. Seems like there must have been changes from MPI to generations of MPI, not just to SPI, the MPI i disassembled was quite like the SPI, just with an injection loom and add ons.

I can say the fuel pump 2 second squirt is 100% normal, that's the pump priming for start up, it starts pumping again once the engine is running.

So we know the engine isn't immobilising as the pump is priming, We have some kind of spark, so the crank sensor is doing "something". I'm starting to lean towards timing, do the marks all line up? it's possible to do them 180 degrees out, though i would expect some kind of popping etc on attempted fire up
Likes gl1200 liked this post
__________________
www.fiat-scotland.com,the home of all things both scottish and italian. it's a bit like having an irn bru with your pizza, only much tastier

98 Fiat Cinquecento Sporting 16v, 94 Land Rover Discovery 300tdi
mrcinquecento is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 17-04-2018   #11
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 14
Thanks: 1
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Poorly Schumacher

ok fine I can live with the squirt,(priming)

timing has been checked several times at the cam end and g/box,
remember this actually started(1st post) but ran rough which is why timing was rechecked, even tried going a tooth out either direction,

its getting fuel as the plugs are wet(all cyl) so I assume injection is working, and it seems to spark, but to me looks very weak,

have even hooked it up to a larger battery to keep it going but it just spins and no attempt to fire,

the shop says there are 2 crank sensors one for 187 and another now I have been assuming this is a 187, but it may have had a lump changed in its early life, any idea's where i can find info on the block/casting,

we have owned it since 2008 and 3 rd owner,

keep the ideas coming as I need the support my head hurts,
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

gl1200 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 17-04-2018   #12
Stick your own title
 
mrcinquecento's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dundee
Posts: 1,627
Thanks: 78
Trader Rating: 0
mrcinquecento has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Poorly Schumacher

I think the block number is etched into the casting where the water pump is mounted onto. It won't matter what block it is though, the engines are all pretty much identical, the differences are all injection/ecu for the most part.

There is a different sensor, but as far as i know, the only difference is between SPI and MPI,

Can you put the original crank sensor back on and see if it goes back to trying to catch? it could just plain be an unlucky faulty replacement/wrong part.

Just to be sure, the crank/alt belt pulley is on correctly and correctly located with the dowel in the locating hole?

I really think it needs live data read so you can see what the sensors are/aren't seeing when you try to fire up. Fault code reading on its own won't cut it for diagnosing something like this. I'm not sure what works on an MPI Sei, but on my Cinq 16v, i use IAW Scan 2. Bit tricky to get the correct leads to make it work, though!
Likes gl1200 liked this post
__________________
www.fiat-scotland.com,the home of all things both scottish and italian. it's a bit like having an irn bru with your pizza, only much tastier

98 Fiat Cinquecento Sporting 16v, 94 Land Rover Discovery 300tdi
mrcinquecento is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 18-04-2018   #13
Autotest Special
 
rallycinq's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 22,977
Thanks: 1132
Blog Entries: 3
Trader Rating: 1
rallycinq has donated!
British Indian Ocean Territories 
Re: Poorly Schumacher

Timing wheel on its nipple?

D
Thanks gl1200 thanked for this post
__________________
rallycinq is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 18-04-2018   #14
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 14
Thanks: 1
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Poorly Schumacher

todays update, We have life,(sort of)
re cleaned all earths, replaced battery, and it coughed and fired but would not catch/run best was 5 sec burst,

2 f/codes Po203 inj circuit open cyl 3 & Po335 CPS a circuit malfunction,
cleared codes and checked injectors (all) reading 14.7 ohs
removed plugs and cleaned, no fuel on no3(surprise), pulled injectors and cleaned, no problems seen, test with 12v and they all click, refitted,Changed C/S to old one,

it started but ran very rough will not idle, but does rev to limit coughing and spluttering, again 2 codes
P0300 random multi misfire, P0130 02 sensor circuit malfunction,
cleared codes and restarted, no codes rough idle very lumpy

had to abandon at this point as she overheated, fan did not cut in, its had a new temp sensor, new fan/rad unit, now this worked when we got it running last time,

so, I'm thinking no 3 injector may be on its way out under load,

temp sensor ????? any way of testing

day off tomorrow have to take the car killer shopping

there is a chink of light at the end,

wouldn't no how to live scan, and dont have a laptop, I'm old school,(very old) my own daily is a 1955 morris minor
Likes mrcinquecento liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

gl1200 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 18-04-2018   #15
Stick your own title
 
mrcinquecento's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dundee
Posts: 1,627
Thanks: 78
Trader Rating: 0
mrcinquecento has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Poorly Schumacher

Ok, that's progress.

I think there's something else going on other than purely an injector, but as there's signs of life and there seems to be a fault somewhere in there narrowed down, it's worth remedying that before changing anything else.

Not sure how long you had it running for, but it shouldn't overheat that quickly, mine have all taken a fair while to get up to temp, might be worth changing the thermostat and making sure it's all properly bled once refilled. MPI fan is ECU controlled and gets its signal from the green multi thermo sensor. I think, from memory, if you unplug it and the engine is running, the MPI ECU has a hissy fit and puts the fan on, so that may be a work around or test of the switch. Albeit it will trigger other issues.

My (Garage) neighbour is a Morris Minor fanatic, has a stunning concourse winning example, my daily is my clockwork fuel pump 300tdi Landy, i enjoy AA ad with the question "what would you do if your engine management light came on at 70mph?" My answer is "Probably crash with the shock that my car has sprouted an engine management system". I prefer old/low tech.
Likes gl1200 liked this post
__________________
www.fiat-scotland.com,the home of all things both scottish and italian. it's a bit like having an irn bru with your pizza, only much tastier

98 Fiat Cinquecento Sporting 16v, 94 Land Rover Discovery 300tdi

Last edited by mrcinquecento; 18-04-2018 at 23:07.
mrcinquecento is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Reply
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
(T) Poorly 1.6 :( FSJay Stilo 3 20-04-2015 13:31
(T) poorly HP dinpitt Panda 15 09-09-2010 21:59
(G) Uh oh. 500 is poorly. jnoiles 500 2 22-08-2008 17:44
poorly 1.2 Dave FIAT Boo Archives 4 17-06-2008 23:59