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Old 06-09-2017   #1
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Lightbulb First build not bought (1.2 8v turbo)

So after driving my '00 mk1 seicento with a tickled 1.2 16v, I am looking for moooooore Currently the 16v has:

Supersprint exhaust
300cell racecat
Iridium sparks
Low resistance spark cables
Bigger TB (forgot the size)
ECU by Woj

I have always wanted to build engines, but never had the chance to follow my dreams through my school/career, but have always been working on cars since I was 15. So, after I was offered a turbo kit that came of a Cento, I decided it is time will go on my own adventure with my first build not bought engine

I have already spend some time researching the forums to get a rough idea of how to start, and this is my current plan:

These items came with the kit
1.2 8v MPI head (p75)
Garret tb19
Intercooler
Piping
Oil lines
Forge dumpvalve
ECU by Woj (again . Should run without any piggybacks as this kit came from a runing turbo cinq which was using a stock 1.1 bottom end with thick head gasket)
Boost controller (manual by the looks of the pics)

This is what I was planning on using/adding myself
p75 bottom end (mk1 or m2?)
p85 pistons/rods (mk1 or mk2?) (avoiding thick gaskets to avoid blowing them)
Oil cooler (previous guy didn't had one)
EBC (I would like to have boost by gear which is going to be a challenge)
Water/Alcohol injection (to boost (hehe) the reliability. source)

As with the p75 bottom end and p85 pistons/rods I am having my doubts going for mk1 or mk2 parts. Reason is that I already know that the mk2 16v bottom is stronger but has a higher compression which I need to get rid of, but I'm not sure if the same goes for the mk2 p75 bottom end. So this brings me a couple of questions.

Does anyone know I can calculate the final CR if I would be using a combi of mk1 or mk2 p75 and p85 parts?

Do both the mk1 and mk2 p76 engines have oil jets to cool the pistons from below?

Does it matter that the 16v pistons have the indents for the extra valves? I'm thinking of issues like hotspots on the sharp edges.

Is it normal that the previous guy was using 10w60 oil? Even without an oil cooler this seems mad...

In total, I have set a budget aside of about 800-1000eur to build this engine of which 550 goes to the turbo kit, which sounds doable to me (but then again, this is my first build not bought engine )

All help is welcome!
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Old 09-09-2017   #2
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Alright, so ive been tokd that the bottom end of yhe p75 is the same as the p85 bottom end. Something I find rather hard to believe because a. the p85 has a Cr of 10.2 and the p75 has a Cr of 9.8, and b. tgat would mean its useless to use p85 pistons and rods in a p75 bottom end to lower compression. Can someone give me some insight?
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Old 12-09-2017   #3
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Re: First build not bought (1.2 8v turbo)

P75 and P85 bottom ends arent the same, maybe in terms of dimensions (ie. bore and stroke) but all the oil and coolant passage ways do not line up with an 8v head..

I have to admit if it were me I wouldnt go back to 8v for the turbo, i can see why you are planning it but seems silly to me, why not turbo the 16v?
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Old 12-09-2017   #4
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Re: First build not bought (1.2 8v turbo)

16v and 8v cranks are the same. Different pistons and con rods.
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Old 12-09-2017   #5
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Re: First build not bought (1.2 8v turbo)

Just figured that out, but thanks!

Reason I will let my 16v as is, is so I have a spare engine I can swap out in case the turbo build goes boom.

Current engine plan:
1.2 16v bottom end
Peenshot rods
Turbo piston rings
1.2 8v mpi head
Steel 500 1.4 8v head gasket
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Old 14-09-2017   #6
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Re: First build not bought (1.2 8v turbo)

Have seen my name twice, that's a lot for one post

From whom does the turbo ECU come from? I think I know, but want to confirm (the 16V I also think I know, but this is less important), before I continue.
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Old 14-09-2017   #7
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There is the man of the hour haha!

The turbo ecu comes from a new member of the club that you pribably dont know, which bought the cinq from another member that you appearently helped haha (you know how it goes hehe). Below is a pic of the car this came came out of.

(Just noticed in his project topic he said Novitec kit, but these didn't came with an MPI? In our private conversation he said, I quote, "the one and only wojtec did the ecu" =p)

I bought the 16v ecu from Pablo a year ago, but never ran my engine with it. Didnt perform well after I added my ss exhaust system
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Old 14-09-2017   #8
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Re: First build not bought (1.2 8v turbo)

The 16V-s running on the 18FD IAW are notorious when it comes to bad running especially in 2-3k RPM range, they feel like constant missfire. Further tunes make it worse. I did all I could to make it run reasonably, but I was never happy with the end result. And I am yet to figure out where the problem is (in the ECU I am certain, just not sure where exactly).

I asked about the 8V turbo ECU, because this one is still not fully paid for :/ and it is certain that it will never be. But glad to see that it was running, because the amount of live tuning was minimal (I did it on an incompletely built engine during one night shortly before I left the country for good).

What you should know before you dive into this - this ECU was mapped for 1.1, which means that if you use the same fuelling setup on 1.2 it will be underfueled, by around 8-10%, this is a lot! There were also changes in spark advance towards 1.1, but I don't remember what they were. One quick solution is to raise the fuel pressure slightly, or use accordingly larger injectors. In either case, you need to get an AFR to see where the fuel is.

And, the ECU can do EBC, but there is a lot of buts. It needs to be live tuned (and I am the only one that can do it and I am not available), and it needs a small cabling "part" between the EBC valve and the ECU. So probably not a way to go.

Otherwise, do not be so optimistic about the budget
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Old 14-09-2017   #9
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Re: First build not bought (1.2 8v turbo)

Fortunately I didn't pay much for the 16v ecu. Pablo decided to scrap his cinq, so I got that ecu together with the bigger TB for just 100 euro extra on top of what I gave him for his 6-speed.

Sorry to hear man =/ I've had my own experiences with people not paying up in the club, so I know the feels...

I was aware of that yes (I do have quite some knowledge regarding engine tuning, but never had the funds to dive into it. Hence going for an 8v setup, since it will be less expensive when it goes boom =') ). I have already been talking to Kvonk to help me out with this since he told me he had the software for it, but I would prefer to give it a shot myself. Would you mind if I would be asking you some questions elsewhere? Perhaps over Whatsapp if you use that?

I have all the neccesary guages to keep an eye out: Oil temp, AFR, Boost, will be adding coolant temp myself. I'm also planning on building a water/methanol kit to keep things cooler to prevent detonation and overall increasement of durability.

The project will not be done in a month as I will be preping the entire engine from top to bottom. Most of the costs have already been laid out, and if it will become more, it will just take a bit longer =) I've already decided to up the budget to around 1500e to get it all done properly (peenshot rods, new crank bearings, new piston springs, all new gaskets, etc...). I've already found a complete 16v bottom end for just 100e with 155k on the clock, that will be revised anyway (est. costs around 400e inc parts and machining).
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Old 14-09-2017   #10
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Re: First build not bought (1.2 8v turbo)

Well, good luck and I'll be watching. I do not give away my whatsapp that easily, but I visit here from time to time.
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Old 14-09-2017   #11
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Re: First build not bought (1.2 8v turbo)

Fair enough haha. I would probably start to have allot of questions when I get to the tuning part, whic actually brings me to the first one... Where would I be able to ind the software to remap the ECU? Or at least the software to read out my 16v? I've tried multiple OBD kits, but non of them seem to get in, while Kvonk was able to get in with his laptop.
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Old 20-09-2017   #12
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Quote Originally Posted by woj View Post
Well, good luck and I'll be watching. I do not give away my whatsapp that easily, but I visit here from time to time.
What standalone ecu would you recommend me to go with instead of using a modded stock ecu?
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Old 20-09-2017   #13
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Re: First build not bought (1.2 8v turbo)

its not a fancy engine so most would do fine, i know alot of the polish guys use ECU-Masters EMU but i suspect thats cause they are a Polish company. But really the best thing to do when decided is talk to some local tuners and see what they are happy with mapping, no point getting some epic ecu only to end up not being able to find anyone to tune it.
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Old 20-09-2017   #14
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Eventually I was planning on tuning it myself (using a spare engine I have laying around to start with), but ill check in with some local tuners. Should be a great starting point indeed!
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Old 20-09-2017   #15
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Re: First build not bought (1.2 8v turbo)

Hmm, this looks interesting indeed. And way cheaper then all the other ecu's i've seen clocking in at 1200 euros.

http://www.ecumaster.nl/nl/engine-ma...aster-emu.html

Would this give me the option to also hook up an small screen to show all the data, or just the analoge guages? Cant find anything about either of them in the datasheet.
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