Hi, has anyone ever towed a Cinq with an A Frame before?

I'm looking at a 1994 one, and usually I use an A Frame to get cars home, but I don't know if it will fit on it!

Has anyone got a photo of the underneath of the front of a Cinq around 1994?

Cheers people...

Ed.M

I've used an A Frame many times but don't recall ever having a Cinq on one so I can't help with your problem.

I'm sure you're aware that it's illegal to transport a car using an A Frame. They can only legally be used to recover a brokendown vehicle to the nearest place of safety.

Dave.

front track specs here

https://www.fiatforum.com/cinquecento-seicento-faqs/94738-cinq-sei-kerb-weights-dimensions.html

Davren said:

I'm sure you're aware that it's illegal to transport a car using an A Frame. They can only legally be used to recover a brokendown vehicle to the nearest place of safety.

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Do you mind if I ask where you got that from?

I looked into the use of A-Frames before I bought one, and could not acually find anything that said it was illegal.

Lots of controversy on A frames. No one really seems to know. As far as I can work out there is a weight limit on the wheeled ones of 750kg (a little more than a Cinq), the others seem to be OK. I've used the non wheeled type where you drop chains around the wishbones and winch them up tight with a strap several times on Seis and Cinqs without any issues, no pulls by the police, etc.

I can't work out why towing a caravan should be OK but towing a car not.

edessex said:

Do you mind if I ask where you got that from?

I looked into the use of A-Frames before I bought one, and could not acually find anything that said it was illegal.

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It's stated as such in the highway code.

However...

AFAIK there is nothing written into law that actually makes it illegal.

fingers99 said:

I've used the non wheeled type where you drop chains around the wishbones and winch them up tight with a strap several times on Seis and Cinqs without any issues, no pulls by the police, etc.

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I've got the chain type so if you've done it that's cool!

I've done over 600 miles, most of which were on motorways, including the M25 with my A-Frame, and not been stopped yet, touch wood!

The law states trailers must be braked, which a car is, regardless of how you operate it, and on a licence (unless you have B+E) the trailer must be no greater than 750kg, so as far as I am concerned, I have converted a car to a trailer....

Therefore legal.

One thing that's nice on the Cinq/Sei is that you can actually drop the chain through the holes in the wishbone, which can make getting it even both sides easier.

edessex said:

Do you mind if I ask where you got that from?

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NTTA (National Trailer & Towing Association) website;

"The law regards this as an unbraked trailer and you are allowed to tow up to 750 kg Gross Trailer Weight, not a car’s kerb weight. The figure you have to use is the car’s Gross Vehicle Weight or Maximum Permitted Weight. This is usually at least 300 - 400 kg more than the kerb weight. We have no knowledge of any car sold in the UK that has a GVW under 750 kg. The only vehicle we know that is completely legal to tow with an A-frame is the French Aixam small "car". This is a full four seater and details can be obtained from Aixam UK on 01926 886100. An A-frame or dolly can only be used to recover a broken down vehicle to a place of safety. Transporting a car is, therefore, illegal. A-frames may be offered with a braking system that applies the car's brakes. These do not conform to the law as the car then becomes a "braked trailer" and has to conform to European Directives contained within the Construction and Use Regulations. It does not conform to the European Directive 71/320/EEC and amendments regarding braking requirements in any way. The use of this A-frame for transportation is illegal. It is still OK for use to recover a vehicle to a place of safety."

fingers99 said:

Lots of controversy on A frames. No one really seems to know. As far as I can work out there is a weight limit on the wheeled ones of 750kg

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The "wheeled ones" are classed as Dollies, not A Frames and in law, towing a car on a dolly is classed as towing 2 trailers. The same ruling still applies though. They can only be used to tow a brokendown vehicle to the nearest place of safety.

Of course the fact that you've "done over 600 miles" or "not been stopped yet" or had "no pulls by the police" doesn't make it legal, just lucky so far.

Dave.

Hi I normally drive al lot both professionally and for fun, I stop at motorway services after a few hours, for latte & kick the tyres. Listen to CD or radio, play with WiFi...

I notice that the AA now seem to relay cars on dollies, as they arrive on one van and dolly and depart on a second van and dolly. They sometimes use low loaders - alternately.

Noel

Pep0 said:

I notice that the AA now seem to relay cars on dollies, as they arrive on one van and dolly and depart on a second van and dolly. They sometimes use low loaders - alternately.Noel

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The AA VRS (Vehicle Recovery System) vehicles are different to an A-Frame or Dolly because it's a deployable unit permanently fixed in the back of the van and therefore classed, in law, as a dedicated recovery vehicle. Despite this, they're still not allowed to transport non-brokendown vehicles and are only allowed to recover brokendown vehicles upto a maximum of 62 miles (100km) from the AA vehicle's "home base". The 62 mile limit is why several different vehicle are often needed for one recovery.

The AA have never used wheeled Dollies but did use A-Frames until they became illegal under EU law, several years ago.

Dave.

Hi

Thanks however I was sure they were not a permenant fixture, I'll have to pay more attention to the next relay. Beats watching the touch up paint dry...

Noel

Davren said:

The AA have never used wheeled Dollies but did use A-Frames until they became illegal under EU law, several years ago.

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I can honestly tell you that I saw the AA use a wheeled dolly today on the way back from London!

Also what a towing club website says, and what the actual law is, are two completely different things. The law often gets mixed up in re-writing, as it cannot be cut and pasted on professional websites due to copyright.

Davren, have you read on any official, government based document, that it is illegal to use the a-frame for what I'm using it for?

To answer the OP's question.

Yes an 'A' frame fits a Cinq, I have used one for recovery several times.

Cheers

SPD

edessex said:

I can honestly tell you that I saw the AA use a wheeled dolly today on the way back from London!

Also what a towing club website says, and what the actual law is, are two completely different things. The law often gets mixed up in re-writing, as it cannot be cut and pasted on professional websites due to copyright.

Davren, have you read on any official, government based document, that it is illegal to use the a-frame for what I'm using it for?

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The AA VRS may look like a wheeled dolly when deployed but the boom extends from, and is fixed into the back of the vehicle. It uses disk brakes that are operated directly from the AA vehicle's braking system (no suplementary brake cable to jam on the towed vehicle's seat and brake pedal). This makes it a dedicated recovery vehicle and legal in the eyes of the law but still with limited distance restrictions.

There is no official document that specificaly states "An A-Frame is illegal". Just as there is no official document that states "Hitting an old lady over the head and stealing her pension money is illegal". It would be equally impossible for you to show me any official document that states "An A-Frame is legal" The law is allways subjective and open to interpretation by the judiciary.

To prove the point you need to trawl through reams of official documents including UK Construction and Use Regulations and EU Directives, one of which is mentioned in the NTTA text above. I did this about 6 years ago in conjunction with a well known trade union and proved that an A-Frame does not comply with several of the regulations in those documents and is, therefore, not legal for use in any member state of the EU.

Here's some links to some of the other documents we used. There was also a lot of relevant legal information on the old EUR-Lex site but that's now moved to Europa.eu and all the links I had have changed.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2003/20031998.htm
http://www.cardesignonline.com/legislation/european-legislation1.php
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2003/20031998.htm

In the end, you make your choice and do what you believe is correct.

Dave.

I have had both my cinqs bought to my house on the 'solomatic' type chain a-frames. Fits fine, unless the cars been lowered a significant amount.

As for the legal issue, yes, using an a frame to tow a car, even if not broken down, is perfectly legal. I've had lengthy discussions with VOSA on the matter.

I've just spoken to my dad (Traffic Cop) about this, I thought he'd used one a while back and I was right, there's absolutely no problem with using an A-Frame, as long as, first theres nobody in the car behind steering, second it has a working trailor board on the back, and third you make sure it is within your' cars towing limit.

The only thing there might be a problem is when you are towing a car for example with no MOT or tax, you could in theory be fined (£20-£30) for having the car on the road, but he said you'd have to be very unlucky/meet a cop on a bad day. To get this. Even then it wouldn't be a full fine because you are not driving it, it is just on the road.

edessex said:

The law states trailers must be braked, which a car is, regardless of how you operate it, and on a licence (unless you have B+E) the trailer must be no greater than 750kg, so as far as I am concerned, I have converted a car to a trailer....

Therefore legal.

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The car might have brakes, but unless they have been converted to operate with the towing vehicle brakes, either by direct connection to the braking system or by over0run device, it is unbraked and therefore illegal.

Cheers

SPD

Thanks for all your replies, once again it is expectedly mixed!

I'm going to trust micsy a bit here...

I towed home a Pug 205 yesterday, through the Harlow and Stansted Airport areas, even saw the 'Police Interceptor' (don't know if anyone ever watches that...) cars, and nothing...

The cars I've shifted are within the towing weight of my truck, and I always use a lightboard, with no-one in the car I'm towing...

I've recently bought an A frame......So this was a great read!!!....

Cheers all...kev