Register Login
FIAT Auto Specialist Team
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-02-2009   #1
'
 
kritip's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,789
Thanks: 184
Trader Rating: 4
kritip has donated!
United Kingdom 
More Gearbox Q's (C514 vs C510)

I've been doing some research (after test driving a 500 abarth today )

I need to sort my gearbox issues out, and am considering 5 speed agian, due to the restricted lock on turning etc.

The panda 100hp, punto 6 speed etc. are all derivatives of the old cinq gearbox, the C514.

The new 500 abarth runs the C510 gearbox, and as it fits to pretty much the same block, the casing must be similar?!

C514 (cinq, punto 5/6 speed etc.)
Center Distance: 170, 182 mm
Configuration: W-E, 2 axys
Max Input Torque: 150 Nm
Lenght: 362 mm (5-sp), 410 mm (6-sp)
Mass: 33 Kg (5-sp), 35 Kg (6-sp)


C510 (500 abarth, and similar)
Center Distance: 181 mm
Configuration: W-E, 2 axys
Max Input Torque: 206 Nm
Lenght: 380 - 395 mm
Mass: 36 Kg

The 510 can handle a lot more power, and seeing as though my current box has seen less than 7000 miles before death, this can only be a good thing

It's also shorter (physical length) than the 510 6 speed (another bonus in my application).

I'm hoping the diff cup thread is is similar, and the dimensions. What I want to know, if anyone has any pictures of the C510, know what other applications it was used in, as it's been around for a while.

ANYTHING at all information wise will be great

Cheers,

KRistian
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

kritip is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 08-02-2009   #2
'
 
kritip's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,789
Thanks: 184
Trader Rating: 4
kritip has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: More Gearbox Q's (C514 vs C510)

Quote Originally Posted by HP. View Post
It's dangerous to assume that certain parts are fitted and therefore certain modifications or patterns of use are inappropriate.

I've found from Italiaspeed, speaking about the Grande Punto:

"The 5-speed gearbox for the 75 bhp 1.3 Multijet engine

The C510 is extremely easy to manoeuvre and very quiet. It has a transverse configuration with two shafts in a cascade and one differential. In this case too, the gearbox has been optimised, adopting a dual cone synchroniser on first and second, and a highly efficient reverse engagement control. Two improvements that guarantee the product's excellence where manoeuvring is concerned. Lubrication is dynamic and the oil is channelled through bore holes in the housing and on the shafts. The maximum torque transmissible is 21 kgm."


The C514 is fitted to the 1.2 8v and 1.4 8v engines:

"The 5-speed gearbox for the 1.2 8v and 1.4 8v engines

Enhanced acoustic comfort, reduced engagement effort even when cold, and more precise gear engagement. These are the advantages of the C514 gearbox (a transverse configuration with two shafts in a cascade and one differential), which was optimised by changes to: the gears, synchronisers, lubrication, internal gear control and clutch control. Combined with the 5-speed Fire 1.2 8v and 1.4 8v engines, this version represents the maximum upgrade of the gearbox in terms of transmissible torque (15 kgm)."


So, dangerously assuming things I'm going to say chances are the same gearbox is fitted to the Grande Punto 1.3 MJTD as the Panda MJTD - giving the 'box a max torque rating of 206 Nm.
So the 510 is used in the 1.3 MJT AND the 500 Abarth?
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

kritip is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 08-02-2009   #3
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 3,254
Thanks: 120
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: More Gearbox Q's (C514 vs C510)

It is normally torque that kills gear boxes, a direct drive top gear, with the primary and 3rd shaft locked together is not to bad, but oodles of torque in 1st or 2nd gear is a severe test for the thrust washers, and end case stiffeners.

The boxes for the turbo engines may have been designed for more torque.

Noel
__________________
standard Sei Sporting except for
colour matched ice scraper, screw driver,
& steering wheel lock i.e yellow car
spare alternator belt, clutch cable & bulb set, 2x overalls
Pep0 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 08-02-2009   #4
I Need Beer
 
allanhelen's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,924
Thanks: 100
Trader Rating: 0
allanhelen has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: More Gearbox Q's (C514 vs C510)

The gearing has to be different if it is for a diesel, my old MJ90 GP had the six speed box and 70mph was something like 2.5K revs in 6th
__________________
No FIAT's any more and nothing else sensible either
allanhelen is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 08-02-2009   #5
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Towcester, Northants
Posts: 4,299
Thanks: 151
Trader Rating: 0
J333EVO has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: More Gearbox Q's (C514 vs C510)

Not looked into it but reason the Abarths use the 5 speed box is sure I read its an Alfa gearbox that can handle the power.

The 6 speed box (and 5 speed its based on) would never is pretty much near limits in the Panda/500 100Hp cars, is it used in anything else????

The 500 Abarth in standard trim is 135bhp and 152lb ft which is 206NM which according to your findings is on the limit of torque for the C510 box, yet the SS version offers up 150ish bhp and torque must be close to the GP Abarth which as standard runs 155bhp and 180lb ft IIRC so 244NM. makes me think the box is different.

GP Abarth then in SS trim goes upto 178bhp and 200lb ft (217NM)

Think a wee bit more digging may be needed.
__________________

Cinquecento Abarth 1.4 16V 6speed track toy
Lancia integrale EVO1 Homologation model
MINI Clubman Hampton Edition Cooper SD
VW MK5 Golf R32
J333EVO is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 08-02-2009   #6
'
 
kritip's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,789
Thanks: 184
Trader Rating: 4
kritip has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: More Gearbox Q's (C514 vs C510)

The 500 and Punto esseesse kits are dealer bolt on's for the standard abarth models. You get a crate of the parts fitted by an abarth trained tech, and you get your old bits back.

The esseesse versions don't have any gearbox uprating, so whatever is fitted in the standard Abarth versions, is what the more powerful esseesse run

The 500 abarth is a c510, thats documented on many sites.

I can't find a code for the punto abarth though

The C510 box therefore muust be good for Power: 160 bhp and 230Nm in sport mode.

The punto Abarth esseesse box handles 180bhp and 270Nm and is 6 speed.

I'd imagine the punto Abarth is a bigger box, due to the space available in the bay, and as it is a 6 speed, is something entirely different.

The bravo t-jet also run 6 speed boxes of high power, so i guess the punto abarth esseesse uses the same box.



The 500 abarth version is the box im interested in, due to what it can handle, but from research its looks to be the the same series as the MJT 1.3 box. I'm sure there are different gearings available, so I need to find one thats compatible.


http://www.fptpowertrain.com/eng/app...ambi_eu_sa.htm


///EDIT - Looks liek the Alfa 1.4 TS (whatever that is?) does use the C510 box as well



Cheers,

Kristian
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides


Last edited by kritip; 08-02-2009 at 21:16.
kritip is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 08-02-2009   #7
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Towcester, Northants
Posts: 4,299
Thanks: 151
Trader Rating: 0
J333EVO has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: More Gearbox Q's (C514 vs C510)

Yeah I know about how the SS stuff comes, Emma's Dad has a 500 Abarth on order, has had since July or so last year, should be getting it soon.

Its some cleaver marketing by Fiat telling the public that its like original Abarth getting your stuff in crates etc but its just a back door way of getting the stuff fitted to the car so it does not have to pass type approval for full on model, type approval for effectively aftermarket parts is different and less involved.

Plus as its an added part, the car retains original emissions data so no higher bands would be added making car less desirable. Plus no official MPG figures are produced for the uprated cars, so maybe when driving spirited it maybe somewhat lower on SS's cars than on non SS cars.

I think its great and shows some ingenuity by Fiat doing it this way, but that gearbox does look to be bang on limits which is interesting, and maybe why there is no bigger upgrade available for the 500 as the bigger and no doubt beefier GP Abarth gearbox wouldn't have fitted, the 6 speed 500's already have a limited turning circle, so with an even bigger box with wider wheels!

Just sell the car and buy a proper one
__________________

Cinquecento Abarth 1.4 16V 6speed track toy
Lancia integrale EVO1 Homologation model
MINI Clubman Hampton Edition Cooper SD
VW MK5 Golf R32
J333EVO is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 08-02-2009   #8
'
 
kritip's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,789
Thanks: 184
Trader Rating: 4
kritip has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: More Gearbox Q's (C514 vs C510)

Quote Originally Posted by J333EVO View Post
Just sell the car and buy a proper one
Talk liek that should carry a ban

Well, I am tempted by an abarth esseesse 500, but looking at the outlay, its going to be a lot of . It was a blast to drive though!

Then I toyed up buying a new 100hp for 6999 and spending 3-4K modding it to get a bit of performance.

THEN i thought i'd just fix mine with a stronger box.

and THEN I had other silly thoughts

Now I'm just looking at getting mine running tip top. Got the MOT tomorrow

Gearbox is the most importnat issue at the moment.

Kristian
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

kritip is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 08-02-2009   #9
'
 
kritip's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,789
Thanks: 184
Trader Rating: 4
kritip has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: More Gearbox Q's (C514 vs C510)

Even more confusing, the punto box looks intercahngable with the 1.4 alfa ox, but the 1.4 alfa box is interchangable with the higher capacity alfa's.

http://forum.alfa145.com/index.php?showtopic=14024

Think I need to go down the scrapper with my tools and a tape measure lol
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

kritip is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 08-02-2009   #10
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bridgnorth
Posts: 5,256
Thanks: 214
Blog Entries: 3
Trader Rating: 1
craigb244 has donated!
spankthemonkey Champion
United Kingdom 
Re: More Gearbox Q's (C514 vs C510)

do you think the ratings on the boxes are actually what they fail at or just a calculated figure? has anyone stripped them to see what (if anything) has been changed to make them stronger?
anyone with a cento running high 100hp that have blown a box, not from pissing about (doing burnouts) but general hard driving ever stripped one to see what has failed.
__________________
1997 - White - Cinquecento - PPC featured High boost 16v Turbo

2010 - White - Punto evo GP
craigb244 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 08-02-2009   #11
Scandinavian Passion....
 
StoneNewt's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Cambridgeshire
Posts: 2,088
Thanks: 47
Trader Rating: 0
StoneNewt has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: More Gearbox Q's (C514 vs C510)

I'd assume that the ratings are for when the box will give up after a reasonable service life else my 6 speed, from a 1.2 16v Mk2 Punto Sporting, should have given up a long time ago considering I think I'm running a C514 'box with over 230Nm of torque!
__________________

Seicento Sporting, 1.1 8v N/A, Dark grey
Seicento Sporting, 1.2 8v turbo, Yellow
Volvo V70 D5 Sport, 2.4 20v twin-turbo, Black
StoneNewt is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 08-02-2009   #12
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 3,254
Thanks: 120
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: More Gearbox Q's (C514 vs C510)

How often do you check your drain plug magnet?

Noel
__________________
standard Sei Sporting except for
colour matched ice scraper, screw driver,
& steering wheel lock i.e yellow car
spare alternator belt, clutch cable & bulb set, 2x overalls
Pep0 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 08-02-2009   #13
'
 
kritip's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,789
Thanks: 184
Trader Rating: 4
kritip has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: More Gearbox Q's (C514 vs C510)

Since i fitted the box about 8K ago.

Think i will find lots of metal on it?
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

kritip is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 09-02-2009   #14
Scandinavian Passion....
 
StoneNewt's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Cambridgeshire
Posts: 2,088
Thanks: 47
Trader Rating: 0
StoneNewt has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: More Gearbox Q's (C514 vs C510)

Quote Originally Posted by Pep0 View Post
How often do you check your drain plug magnet?

Noel
About 14k miles ago & yes I'm not expecting it to be pretty when I drain the oil, I'm thinking it's due a refresh around the 20~25k mark again. I know that the box will give up some time & it will expire prematurely, I'm not expecting 200k from the 'box. It has racked up the best part of 40k fast road/track miles without missing a beat, a much bigger problem is the clutch, the damn things are getting eaten up in no time .
__________________

Seicento Sporting, 1.1 8v N/A, Dark grey
Seicento Sporting, 1.2 8v turbo, Yellow
Volvo V70 D5 Sport, 2.4 20v twin-turbo, Black
StoneNewt is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 10-02-2009   #15
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 523
Thanks: 6
Trader Rating: 0
Re: More Gearbox Q's (C514 vs C510)

Im not totally sure but i thinks its the diff that pops out(mind the pun) before the rest
__________________
98Seicento 1242mpi turbo
97 Cinquecento sporting (too narrow)
99civic aero deck '1.8vti-too wide'
95Nissan primera 2.0eGT
Slosei is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Reply
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
(G) Couple of Q's FerryScoob Cinquecento / Seicento 7 14-12-2008 21:35
(T) new member with a few q's ChunkiEgg Cinquecento / Seicento 16 13-10-2008 14:42
Mio C510 vtec Satellite Navigation 2 11-05-2007 22:52
(G) What colour?? plus some other q's robbsy_1989 Grande Punto 41 09-05-2007 14:45
can any 1 help me i have q's please chan I.C.E 5 28-07-2005 22:15