Technical Stiffening with foam

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Technical Stiffening with foam

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Nov 20, 2005
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Any thoughts, i *need* to do something with my car!

Foam-Filling the Chassis
In any high-performance car, it is impossible to make the chassis too stiff. The stiffer the chassis, the higher its natural frequency, making the energy imparted to it by bumps less likely to excite the body's structure. A stiffer chassis enables the use of stiffer springs and shocks without hurting the ride. This is because a stiff, non-flexing chassis transfers more force into the suspension where it can be dissipated by the springs and shocks instead of transferring the force to the occupants. A stiff chassis is also more responsive to roll rate tuning for balancing understeer and oversteer. This is one of the reasons why automotive engineers are continually investigating ways to stiffen chassis without adding weight.

In a final bit of reengineering to stiffen the body, we injected the chassis with catalyzed rigid structural polyurethane foam. Structural foam, in the 2 lb per cubic foot density that we used, can stiffen chassis members up to 40 percent.

Higher densities of foam can increase stiffness by up to 300 percent. Since we cannot retool custom parts to redo the Z's body, we figured that this would be an excellent, low-cost way of greatly increasing chassis stiffness. Injecting foam is not a new technique for chassis stiffening. The Infiniti Q45 uses this sort of foam in some of its chassis members to increase stiffness, as do a few other premium cars. In fact, the foam we chose is the foam recommended to repair damaged Q45s.

To get the correct foam for our project, we contacted Art Goldman, Foamseal's automotive product manager and author of an SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) paper on the use of structural foam for the stiffening of automotive unibody structures. We used Foamseal's two-component foam kit, p/n 11-22 to fill the main members of the chassis. Like we mentioned earlier, Foamseal is the supplier that I-CAR, a national certification group for quality auto repair, recommends for the repair of damaged, foam-filled chassis. The Foamseal kit uses a two-part catalyzed polyurethane foam, which quickly cures into rigid, waterproof, closed-cell foam. To prep the car, we carefully masked off all painted areas anywhere where the foam could drip. As this sort of foam is a thermosetting catalyzed plastic, we realized it could be icky if it spilled on paint or any part of the car's interior. This foam is nasty stuff. It is impervious to all known solvents and cleaners.

Rubber gloves must be worn. Get some of it on your hands and it will stay there for more than 3 weeks--don't ask how we know. Do not get this stuff on your paint. Wear old clothes; we ruined ours while learning how to handle the product. We injected the foam into the rocker panels and frame rails of Project Z through existing bolt and drain holes. When injected, the foam reacts like shaving cream and quickly expands to fill the empty space. You can judge how much foam to add by watching its expansion progress through some of the holes. Once injected, the foam expands and begins to cure in about a minute so you need to work fast and plan how you inject the foam before you start.

The life of the foam kit is limited to a few hours once the seal is broken. We filled all of the Z's unibody frame members using five foam kits. When foaming a chassis, you must remember the wires and other lines that pass through the chassis must be relocated or they will be entombed forever.

We were amazed at how this simple procedure improved the performance of the car. The chassis now almost feels like it has a roll cage. A sloped driveway can be driven up sideways with nary a creak. Even though the Z already has a pretty tight chassis, it feels more solid. The ride has improved and road noise has been reduced noticeably. We bet that the car will be even more responsive to chassis tuning measures in the future. If you are a slalom racer, a road racer, have a lowered car or even just want a smoother ride; foaming is a worthy, easy-to-do modification. Foamseal has foams in densities as high as 10 lbs per square foot if you desire to make things even stiffer.

Do not--I repeat--do not attempt to use cheap, hardware-store canned foam. This is not the same thing, and if injected into your chassis, will form a gummy mass that won't dry. Foamseal foam is a professional grade foam, which although it is a little unforgiving to cleanup mistakes, has superior mechanical properties and catalytic curing so it will dry even in an enclosed space.
 
wont effect a cento in any noticable way im afraid! it will just make it slower due to weight. lol

The cento is so short that it hardly flexs.

Have you ever jacked up one corner of a cinq? They bend so much you can't open / close the door!
 
if your car flexs that much there is something wrong! your not trying to open the door on the side thats jacked up and opening against gravity :p

but seriously the cento shouldnt need this. infact no car should to any normal people unless your doing some major racing and which case you have a roll cage wich will stiffen your car a million times more then crappy foam.

Twisting forces should never effect a car as short as a cento.
 
There's rather a lot of pseudo-science bull**** in the original article. It's so bad it sounds like an ad for Slick 50!
 
wont effect a cento in any noticable way im afraid! it will just make it slower due to weight. lol

The cento is so short that it hardly flexs.
Quite wrong on both counts sorry.

A decent structural foam will work very well at reducing certain flexing in the chassis, and the 'centos really do need every little bit of help they can get. The 'cento chassis is so flexible it's untrue, after driving my track Sei hard I can actually feel the normal Sei flex over some of the bigger bumps :eek:
 
Disagree. The Sei is noticeably stiffer...............

Nope, i jack my sei and it flexes like a piece of boiled spaghetti ;) I've removed paint closing or opening doors on a corner jacked sei when the door and chasis collide! :eek:

I didn't read the actual article, but i know the practice;

get a little dent you wanna remove, your in for a messy or impossible job

tell the insurance, you may be in trouble

swap a pannel, or weld it, you may get a fire.

Sure its a good ides, but stich/seam welding the chasis will mae it a lot more rigid, adn more practical

Just my thoughts,

Cheers,

Kristian
 
Sei is stiffer, but probably not stiff enough!

We're talking about filling box sections here, so there's no prospect of the foam stopping a dent being knocked (or pulled) out. And as for welding, well, you'd remove the panel before you popped a new one on (unless you were an artless bodger) and remove the foam with it. Minimal extra fire risk, although it should never be under estimated when welding.

Seam welding is all well and good but you'll need new paint and there are relatively few places on a Cento where it's applicable.
 
Twisting forces should never effect a car as short as a cento.

Chassis torsion will affect anything and everything with wheels in some way or another!

I helped design a race car the other year that was tested to something like 30kNm chassis torsion - the bump moment was the primary design case for the car!

Its a matter of track and wheelbase, as you'll get longitudinal weight transfer and transverse weight transfer in variable amounts, all affecting suspension geometry and chassis flex in different amounts depending on what sort of upset is being dealt with.

What will have happened is Fiat will have based their bump moment on a typical driving value, not something too aggressive...then cost engineered it cheaper, compromising performance a bit.
 
i think you all took me wrong when i said twisting forces should never effect a cento.
yes a cento will flex....even race cars will flex a small amount.
What im trying to say is that the cento is short enough that before chassis flex becomes a probblem your back end will be pointing in the direction you are going.

I recon on a cento it will be better and maybe lighter to make a under chassis brace
 
Chassis flex starts becoming an issue the moment you start to feel understeer, from that point on, due to torsional flex around the door area, the rear has far more grip than the front of the car. Brace the chassis in that area then soften the rear up a little bit (it'll be to stiff now) & you'll get more neutral handling from the car.

Bracing under the chassis just isn't happening unless you do all your miles on the track, the bottom of he foot well is a good 5cm lower than the bottom of the sill. There are options for replacing the corrugations under the chassis with something which can stiffen the whole chassis but it'll be damn expensive & you try declaring that mod on your insurance.
 
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What im trying to say is that the cento is short enough that before chassis flex becomes a probblem your back end will be pointing in the direction you are going.


I riveted ally sheets to where the rear quarter cards were......went round a roundabout hard, and 2 rivets shear off and bounced around the cabin.
Surly that was telling me things are flexing.....as ive never had rivets shear for no reason
 
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