1242cc's in!

It wont start mind.[!]
Its turning fine on the motor but its not actually firing itself under its own steam. eg: Turn ign, it splutters and tries to start, stop turning, engine stops.

Could any of the following have a bearing on this:

1. Earthing esp. Starter Motor, (the earth is connected to the top of the head, to the same bolt that the HT coil cover's connected to. Its turning OK, so Id say this is not an issue really

2. Timing (I have a feeling that I may have set the timing incorrectly)

3. Cam follower shim thickness set incorrectly (Havent checked them yet)

Admittedly, there is little to no fuel in it, so i'll get some later and try again, but all the sensors worked fine beforehand

Oh, how do I know that the alternator drive pulley (the crank sensor thing) is set correctly? I think I put that on OK (I marked it beforehand). Also does 1 full turn of the crankshaft pulley give 1 full rotation of a piston?

Tom (AofB)

95 Cinq Sporting - Rattly GrpN Catback Exhaust, <font color="black">Buckets</font id="black"> and 3pt Harnesses,Sexy VW styleé dials (that look great, but dont work!! D)), 10" Sub and 6x9's, ETech Wing. Lots of Dirt!
1242cc Engine in car, not starting, boot delock soon, K+N still in garage!

Tom, my 1242 really didn't want to go when I first put it in - took a good deal of cranking to get it away.

1. There should be the earth on the gearbox too, which is much thicker. This top earth should be on one of the 10mm studs on the back of the head, not the coil bracket.

2. Take the crank pulley off and check. This is where you realise why 1108's have a 2 piece cam belt cover........

3. As long as a valve isn't stuck open, it shouldn't matter for a couple of minutes running.

The crank pulley has a small hole which should be lined up with the pin in the belt pulley behind it.

Pete.

Links: 1242cc cinq, turbo cinq, Cinqs&Seis Yahoo group, Clubcento

Ah.

1. will do, shift tomorrow

2. check what? (its not covered anyway so it dont matter)

3. and if a valve is stuck open?

I aligned the CP by looking at the position of the Timing mark wrt the missing tooth on the wheel.

I guess it shouldnt just continue cranking, eg crank for 10-15s then stop or become uncrankable without switching the ign off.

Tom (AofB)

95 Cinq Sporting - Rattly GrpN Catback Exhaust, <font color="black">Buckets</font id="black"> and 3pt Harnesses,Sexy VW styleé dials (that look great, but dont work!! D)), 10" Sub and 6x9's, ETech Wing. Lots of Dirt!
1242cc Engine in car, not starting, boot delock soon, K+N still in garage!

Right.

1. ok

2. To set the timing you need to line up the mark on the crank end pulley that drives the cam belt, not the alternator drive pulley - it lines up with the end of the ridge on the oil pump casting (about 10 o'clock) and the notches on the cam pulley / casting at 9 o'clock.


3. It won't fire on that pot, and may burn the valve seat if it starts.

Pete.

Links: 1242cc cinq, turbo cinq, Cinqs&Seis Yahoo group, Clubcento

Right. OK I think I can see what yu mean.

Timing is then as simple as lining up the mark on the block with the mark on the crankshaft pulley, and the head markings with the camshaft pulley markings, then running the belt between the two??

Haynes says something about setting TDC on no 1 pot. That was the bit I forgot:I Im just hoping that isnt essential. I lined up the markings and ran the belt and tensioned it.

Oh, I put some fuel in- that hasnt helped

Tom (AofB)

95 Cinq Sporting - Rattly GrpN Catback Exhaust, <font color="black">Buckets</font id="black"> and 3pt Harnesses,Sexy VW styleé dials (that look great, but dont work!! D)), 10" Sub and 6x9's, ETech Wing. Lots of Dirt!
1242cc Engine in car, not starting, boot delock soon, K+N still in garage!

Originally posted by arseofbox


Haynes says something about setting TDC on no 1 pot. That was the bit I forgot:I Im just hoping that isnt essential. I lined up the markings and ran the belt and tensioned it.

Click to expand...

This happens when you line up the marks, no1 cylinder should be Top Dead Centre when the marks are aligned correctly.

If you have not done this or it is misaligned then no amount of cranking will bring the beast to life.

Fix It Again Tony!
Would swap for X19, Montecarlo Spider or GT.i.e in average/poor condition! Scottish based would be nice.

Good practice is to line up the marks, fit the belt, then with the plugs removed, turn the engine over by hand a couple of times to make sure the two marks still line up.

If they still line up. Check that you have a spark and if so, while someone is cranking the engine, drop a little fuel down the throttle body. Be effing careful doing this cause the car could back fire for that authentic Al Jolson look. If it sounds like it wants to fire then the fuel side could be the problem.

You did plumb the supply and return the correct way round?

Cheers

D

Grumpy old git going fast downhill rather than downhill fast!!

Well there is a spark

I think I may have plumbed it the wrong way :I[)]. There appears to be very little pressure in the fuel system at all, when releasing the cap or a connection clip.

How do I know which is which? I may have labelled them backwards.

Also, theres a clicking sound coming from the TB after yu turn the ign switch off. would that be a non-return valve or something blowing off??

Tom (AofB)

95 Cinq Sporting - Rattly GrpN Catback Exhaust, <font color="black">Buckets</font id="black"> and 3pt Harnesses,Sexy VW styleé dials (that look great, but dont work!! D)), 10" Sub and 6x9's, ETech Wing. Lots of Dirt!
1242cc Engine in car, not starting, boot delock soon, K+N still in garage!

OK tried swapping fuel system feeds round.

With old arrangements, feeds came off and dribbled out fuel.
Swapped over and tried to crank. Fuel pump adopted a sound very different to normal- like theres no fuel in the tank.

Cranking, didnt start, but cranking sound appeared to change at some point during crank, and it appeared to sustain the crank for longer than previously prior to me being scared of killing the batt and stopping.

Undid fuel return union after cranking- fuel came out at great pressure covering me....I take it this means the fuel system is pressurising \ coming up to pressure . and is a good sign. Could I pressurise the system without cranking, so cranking would be easier?

Tom (AofB)

95 Cinq Sporting - Rattly GrpN Catback Exhaust, <font color="black">Buckets</font id="black"> and 3pt Harnesses,Sexy VW styleé dials (that look great, but dont work!! D)), 10" Sub and 6x9's, ETech Wing. Lots of Dirt!
1242cc Engine in car, not starting, boot delock soon, K+N still in garage!

Yep, just turn on the ignition and wait for the pump to start then stop again - repeat a couple of times to get the pressure up.

I'd still check the cam belt timing if I were you, mind. If you have fuel and sparks and it still won't start it'd suggest the sparks are arriving at the wrong time to start the party, or the valve timing is off.

Is it 'kicking' - as though it's almost firing?

Pete.

Links: 1242cc cinq, turbo cinq, Cinqs&Seis Yahoo group, Clubcento

Not really. It doesnt seem to be. I'll have to invoke some help from local spanner dude tomorrow. Given up on it for the evening after covering myself in petrol.

Yuve lost me with this checking timing lark, I presume the belt mark, the TDC mark on the block and the mark on the TDC pulley should align up....is this once per revolution of the belt or crank pulley?

Tom (AofB)

95 Cinq Sporting - Rattly GrpN Catback Exhaust, <font color="black">Buckets</font id="black"> and 3pt Harnesses,Sexy VW styleé dials (that look great, but dont work!! D)), 10" Sub and 6x9's, ETech Wing. Lots of Dirt!
1242cc Engine in car, not starting, boot delock soon, K+N still in garage!

Remember that its not one revolution of each. One revolution of the cam is two revolutions of the crank. You could have it lined up for the wrong stroke.

Cheers

D

Grumpy old git going fast downhill rather than downhill fast!!

If you've got a Haynes, it shows you in there. The crank pulley - one which the cam belt sits on and not the alternator belt - has a line on it. This should point to the end of the raised edge of the alloy casting around it - around 10 o'clock if you catch my drift. Bit like this:


|\
| O

Cam pulley mark should line up with the notch on the cam cover at the 9 o'clock point:

- - O


Imagine the O's are the bolts on the centre of the pulleys.

I'm just making this more confusing, aren't I? lol!

Gimme a ring if you need to talk it through, I'll PM my number.

Pete.

Links: 1242cc cinq, turbo cinq, Cinqs&Seis Yahoo group, Clubcento

Oh s**t...cheers for that Pete

Well, Ive checked, and the 9 o'clock cam pulley lines up as does the 10 o'clock crank pulley.

But this is not after every two crank revs this is after quite a few rotations of the engine!!

D, its done a fair bit of the backfiring out of the top of the TB already, so I would presume it is getting fuel (confirmed as I undid the union and drenched myself in petrol again!:I)



Tom (AofB)

95 Cinq Sporting - Rattly GrpN Catback Exhaust, <font color="black">Buckets</font id="black"> and 3pt Harnesses,Sexy VW styleé dials (that look great, but dont work!! D)), 10" Sub and 6x9's, ETech Wing. Lots of Dirt!
1242cc Engine in car, not starting, boot delock soon, K+N still in garage!

Check the cam pulleys on the 75 and cinq are the same.

Pete.

Links: 1242cc cinq, turbo cinq, Cinqs&Seis Yahoo group, Clubcento

Yeah they are. I checked that beforehand. 28 tooth IIRC!
Erm one thing Ive just remembered is, the 75 Cam has two calibration marks, ones a cast in mark, and the other is a red painted one. I went off the casting one (It looks identical image 2.14b, Chapter 2b.3 part 5 in the Haynes. Bottom RHS)

Oh yeah, I moved the earth, to a thermostat mounting bolt. Hasnt made a difference!

Tom (AofB)

95 Cinq Sporting - Rattly GrpN Catback Exhaust, <font color="black">Buckets</font id="black"> and 3pt Harnesses,Sexy VW styleé dials (that look great, but dont work!! D)), 10" Sub and 6x9's, ETech Wing. Lots of Dirt!
1242cc Engine in car, not starting, boot delock soon, K+N still in garage!

Ive just spoken to the mech, says chances are ive aligned the timing 180 deg out of phase. Oh well, that can be sorted quickly!

Tom (AofB)

95 Cinq Sporting - Rattly GrpN Catback Exhaust, <font color="black">Buckets</font id="black"> and 3pt Harnesses,Sexy VW styleé dials (that look great, but dont work!! D)), 10" Sub and 6x9's, ETech Wing. Lots of Dirt!
1242cc Engine in car, not starting, boot delock soon, K+N still in garage!

Yup, easy to rectify, and with the bit about the spitting through the throttle body, which I missed before, an almost dead cert.

Cheers

D

Grumpy old git going fast downhill rather than downhill fast!!

i had the same prob when the belt fell off my 1108 almost gave up until my mech minded uncle had a brainwave. stated first time after the 180o rotation. for one rotation of the cam=2 at the crank i think. should solve the prob though.

Little Red Devil
AWAITING OPERATION
(L.R.D). ICE started and put on hold. Still need a rear bumper. "its proper getting better i tell thee!"

err? surely if you align the flywheel tdc timing mark and the cam pully timing mark correctly its not possible too get the engine 180 degrees out.

-=[uno 1.0ie RAAAWW!]=-
-=[fiat tech for what it's worth.]=-