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Technical Flat spot in 1st: ECU question...

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Technical Flat spot in 1st: ECU question...

ronnieronson

ronnieronson

Bring On The Trumpets!
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... swopped out the airbox for a K&N induction kit the other day:

intake.JPG


Runs amazingly well through the gears with no flat spots anymore in 2nd, upwards...

But - there seems to be a bit of a problem at the high end of 1st.
MASSIVE flat spot.

Now you have to bear in mind that I used to have to rev the balls off it in first to go anywhere quick - which seemed to be ok, but since the induction kit went on it gets to a certain rev range (which I don't know due to not having a rev counter {yet}).

I was speaking to one of the guys at work (skyline driver - soon to be the proud owner of a cinq sporting for his daily drive), and he suggested getting my spark plugs changed (mainly because it's the last remaining part of the service which I haven't done), and also that there may be a problem with the ecu.

Apparently if the ECU learns, to some extent, my driving pattern - as his does in his clio, it could have caused complications now that there is a larger amount of cold air being delivered to the engine.

The suggestion was to reset the ECU by:

*Disconnect red battery lead.
*Switch on hazards.
*Pump brake approx 10 times.
*leave for approx 2hrs.
*reconnect.
*take for a blast - while taking great care to drive as irratically as I usually do.

...any thoughts on this?
 
ronnieronson said:
... swopped out the airbox for a K&N induction kit the other day:

intake.JPG


Runs amazingly well through the gears with no flat spots anymore in 2nd, upwards...

But - there seems to be a bit of a problem at the high end of 1st.
MASSIVE flat spot.

Now you have to bear in mind that I used to have to rev the balls off it in first to go anywhere quick - which seemed to be ok, but since the induction kit went on it gets to a certain rev range (which I don't know due to not having a rev counter {yet}).

I was speaking to one of the guys at work (skyline driver - soon to be the proud owner of a cinq sporting for his daily drive), and he suggested getting my spark plugs changed (mainly because it's the last remaining part of the service which I haven't done), and also that there may be a problem with the ecu.

Apparently if the ECU learns, to some extent, my driving pattern - as his does in his clio, it could have caused complications now that there is a larger amount of cold air being delivered to the engine.

The suggestion was to reset the ECU by:

*Disconnect red battery lead.
*Switch on hazards.
*Pump brake approx 10 times.
*leave for approx 2hrs.
*reconnect.
*take for a blast - while taking great care to drive as irratically as I usually do.

...any thoughts on this?
Click to expand...

well its worth a shot (y)
 
I'm not being funny, but its a 899c engine, what do you expect ?

Also, i bet the peak HP is well before the top end, surely changing into second just before you start to get into red will land in peak power again.

There's no point raggin first gear either...

(EDIT - I Doubt these cars are clever enough to adapt to driving patterns.)
 
MiG said:
I'm not being funny, but its a 899c engine, what do you expect ?

Also, i bet the peak HP is well before the top end, surely changing into second just before you start to get into red will land in peak power again.

There's no point raggin first gear either...

(EDIT - I Doubt these cars are clever enough to adapt to driving patterns.)
Click to expand...

I realise that - but this flat spot did not exist prior to induction kit going on - all the flat spots before were 2nd to 3rd, 3rd to 4th etc... - which are all peachy now.
 
What you could be feeling isn't a flat spot more the fact that you have mid-range now... putting a K&N filter on the end of a drain pipe in my old punto did wonders for the mid range and made high RPM feel more gutless...
 
Last edited:
StoneNewt said:
What you could be feeling isn't a flat spot more the fact that you have mid-range now... oputting a K&N filter on the end of a drain pipe in my old punto did wonders for the mid range and made high RPM feeld more gutless...
Click to expand...

Yeah, that was something that occurred to me... Pleh... May well have to make my 1st - 2nd shifts a little quicker when beating down barrys in their corsas :p hehe
 
MiG said:
(EDIT - I Doubt these cars are clever enough to adapt to driving patterns.)
Click to expand...

Actually these ECU's DO have a learning capability. They store details of engine running condition and use it to control the fuel and sparks.

You can reset it to factory default, just by leaving battery removed for a while (different people will tell you different amounts of time). But there is no need to put on hazards, pump pedals, count backwards etc etc.
 
....well after much tinkering (and not leaving the ecu for as long as I was told), I took Bertie out for a spin (once I'd figured out how to reset the damn car alarm - wish I knew what I did with the manual for that thing :p).

Power seems to have evened out a wee bit in 1st, but I think this is mainly down to my driving.
Having tried a few times to get my shifts to second down (and remember Im doing this without a rev counter!), I descovered that 20mph is top out for 1st before it flats, so changing up at about 15mph drops me right where I want to be power wise in 2nd.

...so with that problem solved (of a fashion), I set to work on the air inlet piping - a little repositioning and some mild bumper butchering and I think we're there...

Doing a motorway sprint to leeds tomorrow morning, so fingers crossed things should be running smoother now :D
 
balidey said:
Actually these ECU's DO have a learning capability. They store details of engine running condition and use it to control the fuel and sparks.

You can reset it to factory default, just by leaving battery removed for a while (different people will tell you different amounts of time). But there is no need to put on hazards, pump pedals, count backwards etc etc.
Click to expand...

nice one - tis good to know.
Don't think I had left mine long enough tbh, as things didn't feel any different (only left it DC'ed for 5mins - it had started raining :p ), but definately altering my driving style seemed to help.
I'm not 100% sure what help the extra air gap has made for the inlet, mainly because the pipe is not where I want it yet, and it's not getting maximum intake, so we shall just have to see how that is affected when I replace the intake pipe.
 
me also have an 899 cc ~~

Hmm is your engine management on by any chance ???

You can reset you ecu by unplugging the battery and leave it over night ~~

IF u want more power ( or i call it less struggle ) put the 1.2 punto trottle in.. it works a treat !!!!

+ is a pretty cheap upgrade, since u can pick them up for around 20 quid..

OH when i put my K&N induction in, i lost top speed in the first gear, which is a normal thing, but 20 is bit way too low, i remeber when my 899 was completely stock i would easily rach 25-30 ish ( can't remeber ), after my induction kit + tb i can eaily get about 30-32 :)
 
Last edited:
ycming said:
me also have an 899 cc ~~

Hmm is your engine management on by any chance ???

You can reset you ecu by unplugging the battery and leave it over night ~~

IF u want more power ( or i call it less struggle ) put the 1.2 punto trottle in.. it works a treat !!!!

+ is a pretty cheap upgrade, since u can pick them up for around 20 quid..

OH when i put my K&N induction in, i lost top speed in the first gear, which is a normal thing, but 20 is bit way too low, i remeber when my 899 was completely stock i would easily rach 25-30 ish ( can't remeber ), after my induction kit + tb i can eaily get about 30-32 :)
Click to expand...

No engine man light is ok - just the feeling of flat at high revs.
Gonna do a proper ecu reset on thursday night (dont need to use the car friday morning so less to worry about if the ecu doesnt rebed in straight away).

I have thought about the punto tb, but I need to read up on it and see how easy it is for me to do... I prefer electronics lol :p
 
ycming said:
i am completely useless at things , but i'll JUST manage. Is not too bad at all, and the gain u get (for me anway) is well worth it !!!!
Click to expand...

Hmmm, might pop down the scrappys and see if they have a 60 series punto in this weekend.
I understand what the throttle body looks like from the outside - but I have no clue as to how to remove from donor car/fit to mine, so it's gonna take me til then probably to gleam all the info I need :p

Shouldnt really go messing with things like that for the next 3 weeks anyway, cos the car is doing a big trip up to scotland and I need him running as soundly as possible :p
 
ahh i see isee, where abouts is scotland u going to :) ( me in glasgow myself :p)

Anyway i am sure u read ti already, bring a clutch camble with you :).

And the trottle body is only held on by 2 bolts after u taken all the airbox and stuff off.

And we will need to use our own spacer bit.
 
ycming said:
ahh i see isee, where abouts is scotland u going to :) ( me in glasgow myself :p)

Anyway i am sure u read ti already, bring a clutch camble with you :).

And the trottle body is only held on by 2 bolts after u taken all the airbox and stuff off.

And we will need to use our own spacer bit.
Click to expand...

Going up to Comrie - near Crieff.
Been going up there with my family for years - love the place! :)

When you say two bolts - you mean the two I can see on either side of the bob?
So I basically remove the piping that attatches to the bob and then undo the bolts?
hmmmm....
 
balidey said:
Actually these ECU's DO have a learning capability. They store details of engine running condition and use it to control the fuel and sparks.

You can reset it to factory default, just by leaving battery removed for a while (different people will tell you different amounts of time). But there is no need to put on hazards, pump pedals, count backwards etc etc.
Click to expand...

Just a quick reply to let you guys know - Did a proper reset on the ECU last night, and took it for a very aggressive drive, paying particular attention to rev the balls off it in 1st and second.

This has totally solved the problem and the car is now driving like a dream - accelaration is fantastic in 1st and second now, with the car comfortably seeing 45mph in 2nd!

As a side note - 3rd seems to have a purpose now, and 4th is very comfortable up to about 65mph.

5th will cruise from 60 - 70mph gently, or for extra pull 4th will take me through to 75 at a stretch, with 5th seeing the car all the way up to approx 88mph (Just gotta remember to keep those pesky time curcuits switched off :p ).

Daren't take it past that cos it gets kinda scary, and I don't wanna kill my engine too much :yum:


Big thanks to everyone that contributed to this thread - My Bertie is back to full health :D
 
balidey said:
Actually these ECU's DO have a learning capability. They store details of engine running condition and use it to control the fuel and sparks.

You can reset it to factory default, just by leaving battery removed for a while (different people will tell you different amounts of time). But there is no need to put on hazards, pump pedals, count backwards etc etc.
Click to expand...

So, if i usually rag the cock off the car, e.g. aggresive driving mode, the car will eventually go into "Fast" mode and behave a lot more in the way of my driving style ?

Can't say i've ever noticed this, the car always seems the same. Whereas when my Dad drives the car my mum usually drives, its in go slow mode, and after a while of giving it hammer, it becomes much more aggressive.

I Highly doubt the Cinqs can do this. I'd like some proof of it if they do.
 
MiG said:
So, if i usually rag the cock off the car, e.g. aggresive driving mode, the car will eventually go into "Fast" mode and behave a lot more in the way of my driving style ?

Can't say i've ever noticed this, the car always seems the same. Whereas when my Dad drives the car my mum usually drives, its in go slow mode, and after a while of giving it hammer, it becomes much more aggressive.

I Highly doubt the Cinqs can do this. I'd like some proof of it if they do.
Click to expand...

Got a Haynes Manual? - read the section on ECU removal...

It's not how the car behaves on an Ad-hoc basis, its simply "reprogramming" the ECU from it's default factory settings to adjust to the way the car should behave in normal use - it's just that normal use is not good enough for my needs now that I have extra air flow at my disposal from the intake and exhaust system.
 
The ECU will adapt itself to the engine it is controlling by deviating from the factory settings (if required) to get optimum performance. It constantly measures this through all the sensors and will continue to adjust as required untill it goes beyond set perameters and then on comes the engine management light.
The information it has learnt is stored and continuously reused and updated to cut down on the guess work in keeping the engine running at optimum performance.
As sensors get old, they can go out of calibration so the ECU adjusts itself to allow for this. (within reason).
If you get the odd cough and fart from the engine, It may be that the ECU got the prediction wrong for the required settings.
 
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