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Technical Fiat Bravo Problems wit first starting the engine

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Technical Fiat Bravo Problems wit first starting the engine

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proshev

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Hello Guys

I have Bravo 2009 t-Jet 120HP, i have some issues only in winter with starting my car. First of all i change my sparks because i have LGP system installed i have to change on 20000 km's. Next i clean Clamp(when starting this geting Air in the engine) i was thinking thats the problem but after one day same problem. Maybe someone can help me whats the problem only in winter:bang:
 
proshev said:
Hello Guys

I have Bravo 2009 t-Jet 120HP, i have some issues only in winter with starting my car. First of all i change my sparks because i have LGP system installed i have to change on 20000 km's. Next i clean Clamp(when starting this geting Air in the engine) i was thinking thats the problem but after one day same problem. Maybe someone can help me whats the problem only in winter:bang:
Click to expand...
I have a T-Jet Sport where there is no charging feedback light on the dashboard. And did not show that at the starting of the engine, during long long seconds there is still no charge.
Diode block was changed since everything is OK. Ask somebody to start the engine. and You measure the battery voltage in the meantime. Check how soon the 14V charging will be present. And do the same with the Multiecuscan also.
 
proshev said:
Hello Guys

I have Bravo 2009 t-Jet 120HP, i have some issues only in winter with starting my car.
Click to expand...

Hey answered you on Youtube.

I've got the same car...same yearwith LPG. You saw the

This is a common issue withe 120hp T-jet.
In my case, i have replaced/tested investigated..etc ALL tings:spark plugs, fuel pressure, some tested the intake, temperature sensors, compression...etc. ALL were perfect/in good working order.


The only thing that works 100% of the time every time is, finishing the petrol i have in the tank, and then add new petrol. Then it will start 100% perfect for a few days.
New petrol make all the difference.

But because i also have LPG i run the car on LPG for most of the time after start. I assume the petrol rapidly ages/degrades in the tank/fuel rails from repeated heating from the engine.

The problem is only more evident on cars with LPG, because the petrol spends 20-40x time more in the tank, than a car you would be running only on petrol.

I have made a small circuit with a 555 ic, some mosfets, a few caps, resistors and a button.(search for 555 monostable)
When i press that button the car's injectors open for ~1/4 second(adjustable).... this squirts out some fuel in the intake.

With the additional fuel in the intake it now starts every time even if the petrol in the tank is older than 2 moths. (it can still stumble a bit.. but in 20 seconds it's good to go).

You can test by adding some starting fluid in the in take before cranking 100% it will start first time.

Stop wasting money replacing the spark plugs every 20k km. do it every 30k as Fiat intended. Make sure you sue the recommended spark plugs.(mandatory expensive iridium spark plugs fro the t-jet).
 
proshev said:
Hello Guys

I have Bravo 2009 t-Jet 120HP, i have some issues only in winter with starting my car. First of all i change my sparks because i have LGP system installed i have to change on 20000 km's. Next i clean Clamp(when starting this geting Air in the engine) i was thinking thats the problem but after one day same problem. Maybe someone can help me whats the problem only in winter:bang:
Click to expand...

aurick86 said:
Hey answered you on Youtube.

I've got the same car...same yearwith LPG. You saw the video on Youtube

This is a common issue withe 120hp T-jet.
In my case, i have replaced/tested investigated..etc ALL tings:spark plugs, fuel pressure, some tested the intake, temperature sensors, compression...etc. ALL were perfect/in good working order.


The only thing that works 100% of the time every time is, finishing the petrol i have in the tank, and then add new petrol. Then it will start 100% perfect for a few days.
New petrol make all the difference.

But because i also have LPG i run the car on LPG for most of the time after start. I assume the petrol rapidly ages/degrades in the tank/fuel rails from repeated heating from the engine.

The problem is only more evident on cars with LPG, because the petrol spends 20-40x time more in the tank, than a car you would be running only on petrol.

I have made a small circuit with a 555 ic, some mosfets, a few caps, resistors and a button.(search for 555 monostable)
When i press that button the car's injectors open for ~1/4 second(adjustable).... this squirts out some fuel in the intake.

With the additional fuel in the intake it now starts every time even if the petrol in the tank is older than 2 moths. (it can still stumble a bit.. but in 20 seconds it's good to go).

You can test by adding some starting fluid in the in take before cranking 100% it will start first time.

Stop wasting money replacing the spark plugs every 20k km. do it every 30k as Fiat intended. Make sure you sue the recommended spark plugs.(mandatory expensive iridium spark plugs fro the t-jet).
Click to expand...

Thanks about the answer same problem like mine, i was talking with my friend who own Fiat Mito same engine like the bravo. He told me that same problem. Maybe is better to go in Fiat service to ask if they have new upgrade for the computer.
 
There was a firmware/software released at some point, but as far as i know .. it was for the 150hp t-jet.
My car had the latest updates when i went to Fiat.
You should try it, let me know if you have any success.
 
I was talking with guy from fieat this problem will be because we using our cars with LPG, i need to reset fuel maps now yo drive on fuel for a 50 km and then have to go toLPG servicce to fix maps, and then i can drive normaly on LPG but i dont know how long will be fixed this?? maybe is better to stop 500m i need to drive on Fuel and to stop, next when like to drive on ong trips is ok to start my LPG before stop i have to change it to oil again. Because when you on LPG your fuel Enjectors dont work and after a 1 year if they dont work on cold they have problem like mine and your or maybe is better to keep our car garage with blanket over :slayer: What you think aurick86
 
proshev said:
I was talking with guy from fieat this problem will be because we using our cars with LPG, i need to reset fuel maps now yo drive on fuel....
Click to expand...

I said "i tested everything" :)

I did "reset the maps" -reset adaptive parameters, drove on petrol only for thousands of km, replaced the lambda sensor...etc, etc.
It has no effect on my car.
But my LPG system is in top working order, regularly checked, filter replaced..etc. Adaptive parameters are also regularly checked by me.

I also tested something.. to try to get the ECU to adjust the adaptive parameters in order to add more fuel at startup:
-i adjusted the LPG maps to run leaner close to idle, the ecu would compensate increasing the LTFT ... it did have some effect on the adaptive parameters... but didn't work 100%.. there was however a small improvement right after starting.... but got worse with petrol aging.
-This also made for awful change over between petrol - lpg - petrol; the car would bog down.

You could test it for your self... the adaptive parameters can be reset by leaving the battery disconnected over night, or using an EML327 and MES.
(you will get some errors when connecting the battery back ASR,ESP,Hill holder... clears itself after turning the steering wheel a few times all the way from left to right to left to right..)

The only thing that works 100% of the time every time is, finishing the petrol i have in the tank, and then add new petrol. Then it will start 100% perfect for a few days.
 
Very interesting. What are your DTV and FRA values for LPG and petrol?

I experienced this just once. But my LPG (STAG QNEXT) is configured to inject also petrol at higher loads (Stag calls it Petrol Portion).
 
Last edited:
I dont have this problem anymore, now the temperature is 10 degrees if gose under 5 degrees the problem is here. I ask my friend with the same car he says is the same problem from 5 to -5. If is -7 is working okay.
 
I had same problem. After replacing LPG injectors, problem was gone. I had Alex injectors (done 60 000km) and they were leaking some amount od gas into manifold after driving. So on next start, i had too rich mixture im manifold, and engine had hard start.
I put Hana gold injectors.
Also Alex injectors were slow and they slightly messed up petrol ecu map after some time.
 
MikeG20 said:
I had same problem. ....
I put Hana gold injectors.
Also Alex injectors were slow and they slightly messed up petrol ecu map after some time.
Click to expand...

That should be easily tracked down by running the car on Petrol only, after emptying out the lpg tank.
I did that , i also removed the hoses between the lpg injectors and the manifold (and blocked the manifold holes off).
it did nothing.

I have the BRC INO3, they've been on for about 60k km.

I also have the LPG set up to use up to 20% petrol in running under certain conditions. i think BRC call it VSR.
 
Yes, i did chat, but no change.
With Hana injectors, problem was gone. They work better than original Lovato injectors.
I also use 100 octane petrol

Also problem with cold start could be ih LPG evaporator. It could leak LPG in inlet manifold through vacuum hose conection on evaporator. This you can check after driving on LPG, turn off engine, locate vacuum hose on inlet manifold, disconect and put the end of hose in glass of water. If you have lot of bubbles, replace/repair evaporator
 
MikeG20 said:
I also use 100 octane petrol

Also problem with cold start could be ih LPG evaporator...., locate vacuum hose on inlet manifold, disconect and put the end of hose in glass of water...r
Click to expand...

Me too 100 octane.

The problem with mine is to lean at start up... just a bit more fuel and it starts right away.
 
I know you mentioned you replaced temperature sensors, but just to be sure. There are two MAP sensors, one at the turbo and one at the intake on the right side. Only the second one has the temperature sensor inside. It is page 58 (at turbo) and 55 (right side) in the Fiat_NuovaBravo_1.4TjetEngine.pdf.

BOSCH 0 261 230 042 is original sensor, later replaced by 0261230302, which is equivalent of F01C600085, which is almost 50% cheaper.
 
Perfezionista said:
I know you mentioned you replaced temperature sensors, but just to be sure. There are two MAP sensors, one at the turbo and one at the intake on the right side. Only the second one has the temperature sensor inside. It is page 58 (at turbo) and 55 (right side) in the Fiat_NuovaBravo_1.4TjetEngine.pdf.

BOSCH 0 261 230 042 is original sensor, later replaced by 0261230302, which is equivalent of F01C600085, which is almost 50% cheaper.
Click to expand...

Yep, i know, replaced them as well, just to make sure, even tho they can easily be rad and interpreted as working on MES
 
Perfezionista said:
Very interesting. What are your DTV and FRA values for LPG and petrol?
Click to expand...


So yesterday i was out at the car playing with the interfaces (set the petrol to LPG changeover a little lower now at 45 degrees vs 55 degrees as i had it in the summer)

Sadly I cannot give you the DTV /FRA values, because for some reason my elm is not working (might be the drivers+windows10 combo).

What i can tell you is what i saw using Torque (although not great):
-STFT was at around 3% on petrol and lpg both at idle and when cruising
-O2 correction (what i assumed was some sort of LTFT) was also around 3% in all cases.

I made sure it was in Closed Loop.
The STF did vary when changing over.. but i assume that is because some extra fuel is being delivered for a few seconds, until the petrol wetting the intake walls evaporates.


So in my opinion the LPG was set correctly.

Now tell me if i have this wrong:
-i lowered the Iddle LPG and to get it at ~+10%STFT (basically a little lean until the ECU compensates).. this should make it pump 10% more petrol on cold starts...until it goes into closed loop.
 
Another quick update.. it's been -1 degrees today... so after more that 24 hours since i last started the car.
Turned the key.. left it for 3-4 seconds to pressurize the system, then crank, it cought and started on the engines..send revolution.... really fast.

BUT i did also put in new petrol .... so probably a combined effort :)

I will come back in 3-5 days ... or whenever it goes bad again
 
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