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General Bravo Production / Factory Orders

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General Bravo Production / Factory Orders

s130

s130

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I think we kind of guessed what follows, but being seriously interested in buying a Bravo, to potentially replace my Croma at some point in time in the future I just had to ask Fiat UK direct availability and new factory order status.

Below is their response so at least all you/us Bravo nutters know where we stand.

--------------------------------
Thank you for contacting Fiat Customer Information centre and your interest in our products.

Following your enquiry we can confirm that we are currently in the process of updating the Bravo Range and as such, it is not currently possible to submit fresh orders to the factory.

We are currently unable to confirm the full details of the new range, however some of the current versions will no longer be available for order. There are a small number of vehicles available in a variety of different versions and colours which may suit your requirements and will be available for any dealership.
--------------------------------

A suggestion I have heard is that the new Bravo will be an Alfa Guiletta based model/variation. Time will tell.

My keen interest in the Bravo / replacement is that I want a car that can tow at least 1000kgs. The Bravo can do 1300kg. The Doblo as well. The Fiat 500L is currently limited to 1000kgs. When the Bravo drops off the map then there is not current Fiat model with lugging power other than a Doblo or Ducato.

Timing wise it looks like my Croma 2005 is going to have to perform the duties for another year or two.

Anyway I hope the Bravo availability info is of value to anybody thinking of buying new. This end of model status could mean that those interested in a new Bravo could secure a cracking deal on price.
 
Tad-bravo said:
You better not wait for the bravo's replacement and get one while stocks last.

The replacement is going to be the rebadged Dodge Dart, also known as the Fiat Viaggio which is a horrible looking car.
Click to expand...

Still looks better than a Focus or Astra. Maybe the styling will be slightly different or updated to the images you can currently find online and may be tweaked to suit the European market.

Articles seem to suggest the Viaggio hasn't been as successful as predicted in China:

http://fiatgroupworld.com/2013/09/02/dodge-dart-and-fiat-viaggio-a-flop/

Fiat are obviously aware that the Bravo wasn't really a big hit here and introducing a new model which so far hasn't sold all that well elsewhere probably isn't a good idea. That is unless they don't plan on selling big numbers. Only Fiat can really determine their own strategy and what they consider to be successful.
 
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austenw90 said:
Still looks better than a Focus or Astra. Maybe the styling will be slightly different or updated to the images you can currently find online and may be tweaked to suit the European market.

Articles seem to suggest the Viaggio hasn't been as successful as predicted in China:

http://fiatgroupworld.com/2013/09/02/dodge-dart-and-fiat-viaggio-a-flop/

Fiat are obviously aware that the Bravo wasn't really a big hit here and introducing a new model which so far hasn't sold all that well elsewhere probably isn't a good idea. That is unless they don't plan on selling big numbers. Only Fiat can really determine their own strategy and what they consider to be successful.
Click to expand...

in any case, there's no reason to wait for the bravo's replacement.
 
Tad-bravo said:
in any case, there's no reason to wait for the bravo's replacement.
Click to expand...

In one respect yes I agree but in another I disagree.

My real problem is this:

I have two genuine/pure Fiats

Strada Abarth 130TC
Barchetta

and have owned many many previous pure Fiats over the last *41* years.

I also have a hybrid Fiat, a Croma 2005.

The Bravo is (as far as I can tell another Fiat/GM hybrid.

The Dart is an Alfa Guiletta hybrid so I'm thinking that *IF* the Bravo replacement is a Guiletta based car then in could have more Fiat DNA than the Bravo?????

Personally I quite like the look of the Dodge Dart and the Guiletta (although the Alfa 'brand' nose does take a little getting used to :eek: )

Basically we Fiat lovers have a real culture shock to address (which I'm not happy about by the way).

The last pure Fiats were Barchettas, Coupes, Puntos, early Bravos, Tempras, Tipos, Unos to name but a few. Now we seem to have a hybrid range that is likely to continue long into the future.

The GM experience IMHO was a massive mistake by Fiat. On the Croma 2005 then just about every reliability / failure is down to the GM Epsilon platform (suspension, steering, gearbox, drive shafts etc.) The Fiat engine and above floor pan content is all that is good.

So the Bravo replacement could be a blessing in disguise or a complete nightmare.

Back to the current Bravo then it is clear that this a model and technology at the end of its life and things have moved on in the last 5 years, of which the ditching of GM content has to be a massive improvement IMHO.

If my Croma went "BANG" tomorrow then I would certainly search out what current Bravo models/stock are available to buy immediately, but having sorted out all the bad GM issues on my Croma then I suspect the car is going to survive well into the current Bravo nil stock era and into the new model range.

As much as it displeases me I think we are all going to have to accept hybrid cars more and more in the future.

Even VW / Skoda / etc are into the hybrid design/development/sales etc.

HOT TIP

For those thinking of buying any new Fiat then joint the Fiat Motor Club GB. Once a member you are currently entitled to purchase new Fiats under the Employee Affinity Scheme. Depending on model then discounts from 0% (but with spend allowance) to possibly 40% on a Ducato van are available. For the Bravo the last time I look it was 24% or 28%.

Google "fiat affinity scheme" and see what you may find. What you see is not what may be available from the Fiat Motor Club but I've yet to find a case where publicised "affinity scheme" prices differ.

Oh! before I forget why not just join the Fiat Motor Club GB (the oldest RAC affiliated motor club in the UK). (shoooooot me know for blatant advertising ..... when you get me in your sights shoot ahead because I'll be in the best point to point performance Fiat you will ever have the pleasure to drive!)
 
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s130 said:
The Bravo is (as far as I can tell another Fiat/GM hybrid.
Click to expand...

With what? Other manufactures use some of the Bravo's running gear, but the Bravo doesn't pinch anything from any other vehicles (with the exception of the M32 gearbox, but I'm not sure if thats Fiat making or not) to the best of knowledge.
 
s130 said:
In one respect yes I agree but in another I disagree.

My real problem is this:

I have two genuine/pure Fiats

Strada Abarth 130TC
Barchetta

and have owned many many previous pure Fiats over the last *41* years.

I also have a hybrid Fiat, a Croma 2005.

The Bravo is (as far as I can tell another Fiat/GM hybrid.

The Dart is an Alfa Guiletta hybrid so I'm thinking that *IF* the Bravo replacement is a Guiletta based car then in could have more Fiat DNA than the Bravo?????

Personally I quite like the look of the Dodge Dart and the Guiletta (although the Alfa 'brand' nose does take a little getting used to :eek: )

Basically we Fiat lovers have a real culture shock to address (which I'm not happy about by the way).

The last pure Fiats were Barchettas, Coupes, Puntos, early Bravos, Tempras, Tipos, Unos to name but a few. Now we seem to have a hybrid range that is likely to continue long into the future.

The GM experience IMHO was a massive mistake by Fiat. On the Croma 2005 then just about every reliability / failure is down to the GM Epsilon platform (suspension, steering, gearbox, drive shafts etc.) The Fiat engine and above floor pan content is all that is good.

So the Bravo replacement could be a blessing in disguise or a complete nightmare.

Back to the current Bravo then it is clear that this a model and technology at the end of its life and things have moved on in the last 5 years, of which the ditching of GM content has to be a massive improvement IMHO.

If my Croma went "BANG" tomorrow then I would certainly search out what current Bravo models/stock are available to buy immediately, but having sorted out all the bad GM issues on my Croma then I suspect the car is going to survive well into the current Bravo nil stock era and into the new model range.

As much as it displeases me I think we are all going to have to accept hybrid cars more and more in the future.

Even VW / Skoda / etc are into the hybrid design/development/sales etc.

HOT TIP

For those thinking of buying any new Fiat then joint the Fiat Motor Club GB. Once a member you are currently entitled to purchase new Fiats under the Employee Affinity Scheme. Depending on model then discounts from 0% (but with spend allowance) to possibly 40% on a Ducato van are available. For the Bravo the last time I look it was 24% or 28%.

Google "fiat affinity scheme" and see what you may find. What you see is not what may be available from the Fiat Motor Club but I've yet to find a case where publicised "affinity scheme" prices differ.

Oh! before I forget why not just join the Fiat Motor Club GB (the oldest RAC affiliated motor club in the UK). (shoooooot me know for blatant advertising ..... when you get me in your sights shoot ahead because I'll be in the best point to point performance Fiat you will ever have the pleasure to drive!)
Click to expand...

If you do a little research you'll find that you're wrong. Opel (and saab) borrow engine technology from fiat, but fiat doesn't use anything from GM in the bravo.

Even if you were right, you're sounding a little paranoid especially when talking about the bravo which is light years ahead in tearms of reliability and performance from any previous generation fiat you seem so fond of.

If you are nitpicky about what obscure parts are shared with another brand then you'll be disapointed to know that ALL cars use more or less parts that are built by suppliers who supply every other manufacturer.

The steering wheel you're touching everyday in your chroma might have been made by the same company that make BMW steering wheel, VW's, or even GM. Does that make it any worse?
 
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Yes the GM gearbox and I suspect the GM drive shafts as well.

On my Croma 2005 my GM drive chain is GM gearbox, GM clutch, GM MDF flywheel, GM hubs. I've have had premature failures in the clutch, DMF, driveshafts, springs and wheel bearings. Sadly only the drive shafts failed in the warranty period. I picked up a healthy bill for the clutch pressure plate assembly failure and the associated prudent DMF replacement.

Apart from my old Fiat 600 (1970s) I've never had to replace a Fiat wheel bearing. (Tempra 100,000 plus miles no problems). Yet my Croma 2005 stuffed a GM wheel bearing in 50K miles. This might be a one off failure BUT I am getting more wheel/bearing noise as time goes by.

Anyway

The point of my post is that (regardless of individual component failures etc. which I admit can come earlier than expected) the once totally in house and trusted Fiat platform is no longer what is was and that we will all have to accept a compromise of position and view into the future.

I love my Croma (and my other currently owned and past Fiats)
I could love the Bravo
and no doubt I could love the Guiletta, Dart or whatever....

I'm just so sad that this global car production hybridisation is slowly eating into the original and true DNA of the car and motor bike brands we so much love an support.

Think about this. 40+ years ago (1981) in the industrial and manufacturing industries the holy grail was one name, one part number, one component.

eg. a PC or car would be produced somewhere, under contract and supplied to say IBM. IBM would then then stick their name, part number and one component identification plate on the finished article and then sell it as an IBM PC. For those that truly understand manufacturing, stock control, distribution, service and warranty issues then you will know and understand exactly where I am coming from.

We are not yet at the one name, one part number, etc. situation but we are moving in that direction year by year.

For those that can not understand the implications and relevance of the single part and single part number concept then maybe this will help.

Fiat by Chrysler.
Chrysler produce car Dart and say 10 model variations
Fiat supply one label, one part number ... Fiat Dart
Creative accounting does the rest.

I know this is a somewhat over simplification but it happens, does go on and has major benefits and cross border/country gains to be made when final company reports are filed.

Yes all a game but all a very serious financial revenue and reporting game that if often not in our Fiat lover's best interests.
 
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Tad-bravo said:
If you do a little research you'll find that you're wrong. Opel (and saab) borrow engine technology from fiat, but fiat doesn't use anything from GM in the bravo.

Even if you were right, you're sounding a little paranoid especially when talking about the bravo which is light years ahead in tearms of reliability and performance from any previous generation fiat you seem so fond of.

If you are nitpicky about what obscure parts are shared with another brand then you'll be disapointed to know that ALL cars use more or less parts that are built by suppliers who supply every other manufacturer.

The steering wheel you're touching everyday in your chroma might have been made by the same company that make BMW steering wheel, VW's, or even GM. Does that make it any worse?
Click to expand...

Absolutely and don't get me wrong.

Fiats have/do used ZF gearboxes.
Fiats have BOSCH, VALEO, MARELLI, and more makes I think I could ever recall.

The big difference is this.

Fiat, BMW, Mercedes etc. approach the likes of ZF, BOSCH, VALEO etc and contract (say ZF) to produce a gearbox of a certain quality, standard and performance to fit into they SL Coupe. The gearbox is originally specified to quality and cost issues by Fiat or BMW etc. Same for GM. This used to happen by a car model by model basis. In older Fiats (or other makes) commonality of gearboxes is much lower than today. In older Fiats and Alfas the commonality is not the issue/criteria. What is of importance is that the engineering/design teams took care and pride in their specification and selection of components (even if common) before committing them to final production.

These days cars are built from a "parts bin" and to obtain price breaks contracts are written to supply 100,000+ units. So 100,000 crap GM gearboxes enter the Fiat supply chain. They all have to be used so even if a given gearbox fails at 50K miles with a little bit of luck it will be outside of the 3 year warranty Fiat have to support and hopefully not that many customers will get pissed off and angry to create too much of a fuss.

This scenario is not unique to Fiat. They all do it. In fact Fiat are probably far better than most in supporting their customers. However, as I originally stated/posted I'm very upset and cautious and more importantly concerned about Fiat's original DNA and engineering heritage and in-house design and specification.

I think I'll just go down to my local ScrewFix branch and build my own car IF you guys and gals can not see what I'm driving at.

I won't be able to change Fiat corporate strategy but if the next Bravo replacement is Alfa or Dodge Chrysler based then I am just hoping they are streaks ahead of the GM *rap that Fiat got lumbered with.

Flame me know :yuck:
 
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I think the rot started years ago around the time of the tipo when all the marques were forced to share pretty much the same, and not always all that good, platform and secondly when the beautifully engineered old twin cam was superseded by the new modular engines. Combine this with tighter safety and particularly emission regulations and there you have it. Other marques can be equally dismal though, at least once you scrape off the artificial gloss and advising hype. Have to say though that fiats diesel design expertise has been top notch although sadly not recognised by the great general public, how many vauxhall owners sneer at fiats not realising that their engine is basically a fiat design? Must admit though that sometimes I am confused as to which bits are fiat or gm for instance is the grande punto a rebodied opel/vauxhall corsa or the opel/vauxhall corsa a rebodied grande punto? And the infamous m32 gearbox I get the vibe that fiat folk seem to think it is a gm product but vauxhall folk this it's a fiat one!
 
Tad-bravo said:
If you are nitpicky about what obscure parts are shared with another brand then you'll be disapointed to know that ALL cars use more or less parts that are built by suppliers who supply every other manufacturer.
Click to expand...

This, sadly, is a very true fact.

In a bid to cut costs, manufacturers share so much kit these days that it can be difficult to find original DNA in some modern motors.

I'll use Ford as an example as I know them. Many modern diesel Fords actually use Peugeot engines. The 1.4, 1.6 and 2.0 diesel engines used in Fiestas and Focuses from 2002-onwards are peugeot lumps, and not very good at that. The "chassis" is then shared with other Ford-owned marques such as Volvo and Mazda. It's quite hard to find something uniquely Ford in a modern day Ford. The new Focus seems to be styled on the current Vauxhall Astra (from the side anyway)

What Fiat owners can take pleasure in is that many manufacturers come to Fiat for engine technology. The Fiat multijet engines find home in several marques from Vauxhall to Suzuki.

And the Bravo is, as far as I can tell, a largely Fiat piece of kit. Yes, the gearbox is pulled out of the GM rejects bin, but other than that it's all made by Fiat (or at least, components made for Fiat by the likes of Bosch - that's typical of every manufacturer for as long as cars have been made though).

I'm definitely an italian car convert now though. Since buying my Bravo, I've taken much more of a liking to italian motors than I ever had before. My blood used to run Henry Ford blue, but not anymore.
 
Well the Bravo, despite and GM bits it may have is as far as I can tell a pretty reliable car with nothing more than the usual EGR type of annoyances/issues.

If I were be buy a new one, and I may still just do so, I'll definitely try to avoid the dual zone climate control models as it still appears those little motors are prone to failure with one of them requiring the whole dashboard to be taken out to replace it due its location on the front to bulkhead side of the aircon unit.
 
s130 said:
If I were be buy a new one, and I may still just do so, I'll definitely try to avoid the dual zone climate control models as it still appears those little motors are prone to failure with one of them requiring the whole dashboard to be taken out to replace it due its location on the front to bulkhead side of the aircon unit.
Click to expand...

Yup, I've already had this on mine, fortunately fixed under warranty.

And it's probably a failure point on more than just the bravo.

Electronics will never be as reliable as a mechanical linkage unfortunately...
 
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