General extra speed time

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General extra speed time

dillinger39

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i think its about time i stepped up my 1.2 bravo a bit now

am thinking about getting the car remapped first by angel tuning.

has anyone got any details. and has anyone done this on its own, without conducting any other modifications noticed a big step up in power. i have been told by a very reliable ex bravo owner that remapping the car keeps the economy of the 1.2 and speeds it up alot.


then thinking about having a k&n fitted
sports exhaust or something.
and other speed enhancing things.



but one thing at a time
 
i think that it will be worth it or are there cheaper ways to get 7hp more than in one 250 pound go
 
Alex-R said:
you only get like 7hp more and you will loose a bit of mpg

8-9bhp with a fuel improvement of 1-3mpg as proven time and time again. For more information from people that have actually had this done on a Bravo, go on the Bravo forum or www.fiatboo.co.uk

Its £195 all inc these days on the 1.2 or £285 all inc for a DIA/Remap package which in one case added 13bhp according to the owner who had it tested .

We are only doing 2000my onwards cars now.
 
always get the remap done last. if you get a custom map made for the current state, then change the filter and exhaust, you will not have the best possible map for the new state. it would need doing again to get the most out of the new mods.

if they simply write a premade map to the car (the cheap and easy way) then the order doesn't matter, as the same map will be used regardless.
 
jug said:
always get the remap done last. if you get a custom map made for the current state, then change the filter and exhaust, you will not have the best possible map for the new state. it would need doing again to get the most out of the new mods.

if they simply write a premade map to the car (the cheap and easy way) then the order doesn't matter, as the same map will be used regardless.

Yes indeed, you are correct, however if you are simply putting in an air filter, rather than an induction kit and only changing the exhaust form the cat back then it makes very little difference.

If you are adding an induction kit (and not a K&N 57i!) and doing any manifold and/or "cat" changes, its best to have this done first.
 
dillinger39 said:
and is it worth every penny

That depends on your point of view, to me 8 or 9hp is not worth thinking about, I wouldn't go for it if it was £50. I would put the money in the bank and start saving for another car. Renember if you like to walk the straight and narrow, your insurance will increase too, adding to the cost.
 
question to alfanige and jug


other than a k&n 57i what kind of induction kit should i go for after the remap to add more power making the most of the benefits that i get from the remap. I have seen these on the angel tuning website.

http://www.angeltuning.co.uk/bmc.asp

will it fit on my 1.2 bravo and how easy is it to fit to the car.
 
thank you am going to really look in to it.

it is going to be in a few weeks though cause i need to save up for it and that may take quite a while. am hoping in about 3 to 4 weeks to have the car remapped and then another 3-5 weeks to get a HLX front and back bumber fitted and painted to match the colour of the car.

then i need to save up for the most important thing of all an mot.
 
i dont want to start the same old argument again, but its my opinion so i'll say it again. different induction kits aren't very different to each other, only the price, filtration, and build quality differs, not the performance gains.

a 'better' induction kit will allow air to enter more easily (remove intake restrictions) while maintianing a good level of filtration. any cotton gauze based element will be more than adequate for filtering small particles, while at the same time allowing the element to be cleaned. so a cotton based element is better than a foam (lets dirt in) or paper (blocks and cant be cleaned) element. for that reason keep away from foam or paper based element induction kits and filters.

now the power gains. the air filter will increase the efficiency of the engine by allowing the intake stroke to draw air in more easily. obviously if it is easier to draw air in, it takes less effort, so less power is wasted on the intake. thats where the efficiency increase comes from (more power).

to get a bigger gain, the induction kit needs to make it easier to draw air into the engine. clever students will be thinking "surely having no airfilter is best then?". that is correct, as far as power gains are concerned having no filter will provide the lowest intake restrictions and therefore the biggest gains.

but you need a filter, so which one will provide the lowest intake restrictions and act as if you have no filter? well the truth is it doesn't matter what make or model; what you need to decide is this- what does your engine really need? at what rate will air need to enter the engine?

you can work it out easily. for example a 2.0 engine at 7000rpm will be sucking in (2*7000) 14000litres of air a minute. if thats the redline on your car it won't ever be able to draw air in more quickly than that. if you had a filter that could allow 14 000 litres of air or 1 400 000 litres of air to enter 'unrestricted' per minute there would be no difference as far as the engine is concerned. the gains would be the same, even though one filter is really 100 times better than the other. this is because both filters are good enough for the engine.

so you could have one filter that is 100 times 'better' than another, but if both are good enough for the engine's requirements there is no difference in performance, or power.

now consider the intake restictions of a crappy universal induction kit off ebay that costs £10. they have very low intake restrictions, much lower than the average car needs. my engine can suck more than enough air through the filter virtually 'restriction free'. that means i'm getting the best possible gain from the filter. if i go out and buy a magic BMC filter how can it make a difference, even if it is a lot better, even if it has half the intake restriction, it cant allow my engine to increase its efficiency. the filter is no longer causing any intake restriction so changing it cant make a difference. the throttle body is more likely to be causing intake restrictions now, or even the inlet manifold, or the inlet valves, possibly even the intake pipe connected to the throttle body, but definately not the induciton kit. so no matter which filter i use it wont make a difference.

legally i could sell a BMC filter as 'better' than the ebay universal filter, because (maybe?) it allows air to enter more easily, however if it doesn't increase the efficiency of the engine it wont give better performance, because both filters provide the restriction free air flow required by the engine.

however people who make and sell the more expensive filters will try to convince you that theirs is better for many many reasons (almost as many reasons as why an ecotek valve works :rolleyes: ) but the simple fact is that they cost more, and thats all. i've tried more filters on more cars than you would believe (i've even made a few myself), and what do i have on my car? a universal induction kit off ebay that cost less than £10. do you think i'd have one if the other filters gave more power? hell no, but i'm not wasting money on snake oil, i know they wont give me more power, i'm already getting the lowest intake restrictions i need for my engine.

when trying to judge an induciton kit, consider its element surface area and element type. a bigger surface area will mean less intake restriction, a cotton element will filter well and last. then consider what your car needs and be realistic, bigger is better, but only up to the point where the engine is fully satisfied with no intake restriction.

to make it easier to understand, imagine taking a breath. its harder to breathe through a drinking straw, and easiest with your mouth. a wider straw will be easier to breathe through. you can have a bigger and bigger straw making it easier and easier, but once you get to the point where your size lungs can take in the required quantity of air in the required time with no restriciton- then that straw is good enough for your lungs to breathe through and equivalent to your mouth. a bigger straw after that will make no difference, you can still breathe just as easily
that is exactly the same principle and theory as airfilters. so when salesmen try to justify the high cost of their induciton kit just laugh at their lies and keep your wallet in your pocket.

i'm sure plenty of salesmen and their brainwashed customers will happily argue with me, in exactly the same way a bishop and his flock will tell me that jesus loves me, but i still believe in facts, science, mechanics and most of all common sense. if only everyone else would join me.
 
in case anyone is wondering how you work out if an induction kit is 'good enough' for your engine, you do it in the same way it is done in racing development.

you need to know
the filter element's surface area (x)
the element's air restriction per rate of airflow per given surface area (y)
the maximum rate of airflow the engine needs (z)

if xy=0 @ z then the filter is perfect for the engine.

its really that simple. you cant have less than 0 because less restriction than none is still none, thats a mathematical fact and thats why a 'better' filter will not make more power once 0 is reached.

obviously its impossible for the average modder to calculate exactly when 0 is reached, but common sense tells you that almost any big induction kit will be more than capable of reaching 0, and how much more 'better' it is past that point doesn't matter, as long as 0 is reached. just get the biggest induction kit you can if you really want to make sure.
 
wow that was in depth.

are you telling me then that the cars normal air filter then is more than adequate for the car and gives the same performance as an induction kit would. Cause why would fiat not fit a filter that is not there to give the best performance and economy.
 
dillinger39 said:
wow that was in depth.

are you telling me then that the cars normal air filter then is more than adequate for the car and gives the same performance as an induction kit would. Cause why would fiat not fit a filter that is not there to give the best performance and economy.

Its adequate at best, but cheaply made using cheap components and becuase of this the standard ones are restrictive.

There are a number of difference in induction kits, and so called induction kits.

As long as the air going in is cold, it compresses the air as much as possible and provides filtered air quickly, it will improve the situation. The woefull K&N all noise no go is an example where an open cone air filter in a hot engine bay has a negative affect on the power.

A couple of years ago we tested a large range of filters and induction kits on a 206 HDi, a BMW 320i and a Alfa 147 GTA 3.2, and we went with the results from the Dyno as to what we would use and the CDA came out on top in each test with 4.4bhp on the Pug (5.6% increase) 8bhp on the BMW (5.2%) and 9 bhp on the Alfa (3.9%). Whilst this shows a good increase, it actually shows that the filter system on the Alfa was quite good to start with and the Pug was (and indeed they are) crap!

The K&N 57i was a joke. On the Pug it lost 1.1bhp with the bonnet closed and gain 0.8 with it wide open :-D

We have found that the DIA's are very comparable with the CDA's and just hope that the large diameter ones come into the UK soon as we have a huge waiting list for them.

I would have to agree that whilse the CDA's do give us good results, they are expensive (not the most expensive on the market), but they do look so damn good too - especially the ones on the BMW M3 - but at £620 a throw you would expect it too look the business as well as work - but theyare an arse to fit on them and I have nearly lost all my fingers now doing so lol!
 
dillinger39 said:
are you telling me then that the cars normal air filter then is more than adequate for the car and gives the same performance as an induction kit would. Cause why would fiat not fit a filter that is not there to give the best performance and economy.

an induction kit will cause less restriction on the intake stroke so it is better than the stock filter and airbox, and as nige said how much better depends on how restrictive the stock filter is. manufactuers also need to consider noise levels (hance an airbox approach), and also fuel economy. fuel economy will be better with a stock air box. my main problem with the stock crap is that they get blocked up so easily and quickly, the paper element just collects loads of dust stopping air from getting through.

also as nige said, if your filter does not have a cold air feed and cover isolating the filter from the hot air in the engine bay then it is very likely that a power loss will occur. on the bravo/a the stock air box has a direct cold air feed (with an automatic hot air supply for cold winter mornings). most people will rip the airbox out and stick a k&n style filter on the inlet pipe, allowing hot air from the engine bay to enter the engine, not good for performance (although not such a bad thing for fuel economy).

i would always recommend an enclosed induction kit with a direct cold air supply over a k&n style filter every time. on my car i've kept the original cold air feed from the stock air box and it is directly touching the induction kit, when moving the extra air pressure created will further reduce the intake restrictions providing even better gains, i can expect even better gains if i enclose the induciton kit and have the cold air supply connecte directly to it. to get maximum air pressure you need to have the induction kit fully enclosed, as with the CDA style filters. thats where the extra gains come from, its easier to suck in air at a higher pressure.

imagine taking a breath in a room compared to taking a breath from a big baloon. the baloon's pressure will help to force the air into your lungs, its the same with a CDA style enclosed induction kit with a cold air supply. the faster you go the more pressure is created and so the easier it is to draw in air and the better the gains (which is why a RR figure for bhp gain would be lower than the real gain seen when driving at speed for an enclosed induction kit).

but before you go and buy an enclosed style induction kit, consider the DIY option. i'm currently making myself an enclosure for my induction kit (been experimenting since july) to isolate it from the hot air in the engine bay. i want a transparent casing, so i'm using a plastic peanut jar. one end has a hole the same diameter as the inlet pipe, and the other end has a hole the same diameter as the cold air feed. this is a basic DIY CDA filter, and it works perfectly, but i'm redesigning it because the noise is prety much non-existant and lets be honest, a good noise is just as important as the extra 1bhp. i'm going to try a larger enclose next, hoping the extra volume will create more sound, but who knows, thats the fun of development, experimenting. thats what you pay for with a CDA style kit, someones time and effort going into development, but the thing is its sop easy to do why pay for it, any idiot can get a £10 induction kit and a peanut jar. you can always argue that it wont look as good, but i think my finished design will, and it will be a lot cheaper, and unique.
 
the people i know with the angel tune are very very happy with it (dan aka skate2create) has it and he is over the moon, along with wimmy's 1.2

i havent had it done as i cant make my mind up if im keeping the 1.2 or not, its always changing.... ive thought about tuning it to the hilt etc lol

with the 1.2 you can see damn good gains from the angel tune with dia, plus full exhaust sys incl the supersprint manifold (adds alot of torque and power comaritevley)

the best way to mak it faster is to sort the handling and stopping though, power is no good without control! id lower it and get some good tyres on some wider wheels, ensure all the bushes and mounts are in good nick to tighten things up aswell.. then sort the breaks. even a simple upgrade to fast road pads iwll improve things. do the discs aswell and it will be better still, then you can get on with the engine.

you could go for c&b cams, chipped ecu mapped to suit cams and air intake / exhaust etc and get it running sweet, then strip it out to utilise the power you have better :D
 
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