Can anyone please assist
Where can i get the longer bolts that hold down the camlocks
Also if the camlock doesnt exactly fit the cam lobe on the exhaust cam lobe can I just turn the Exhaust end camshaft pulley to allow alignment
Does the cam lock need to be on the inlet camshaft before the above is done

Where and how does the flywheel locking tool fit and where is the inspection cover on the bell housing located


Thanks

Perhaps you understand
https://youtu.be/0q-UcNCyDD4

Hi,

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M7-Screw...017855?hash=item5d875d9d7f:g:-loAAOSwFYle4xwO

You need the 50mm long ones (M7x50mm).
P&P to UK is GBP 7,25.

They are rare so difficult to find.

If the lobe of the camshaft does not "fit" the tool (exhaust side), likely you have the tool for a different (Barchetta 183 M1 or 188 M2) engine ....
What are the markings on this tool?
O, and which engine do you have (M1 or later M2)?

Tip: once you've removed the plastic belt covers, you could mark (with a white paint marker) the positions of the belt and the cam pulleys and the crankshaft (so aswell the shafts as the belt).
You then copy the markings to the new belt and mount it exactly the old one was (position).
This is an extra check for you to see if you mounted everything with regard to the correct timing.

Ask me if it wasn't clear what I mean.

Good luck!

Frank

I don't understand.

On our 2005 B then the official Fiat cam lobe locking blocks were direct replacements for the relevant camshaft bearing caps. All the same bolts as used for the bearing caps.

Need more info.

Hi S130,

The locking blocks are higher than the cam shaft bearing caps, so you better use longer screws if you want to apply force, hence the 50mm M7 bolts.
Using the original cam shaft bearing bolts on the locking blocks is sufficient for just checking the cam shaft position but if you loosen the toothed pulleys (e.g. from the inlet cam shaft) and don't hold the pulley in place it is possible that the load due to the torsion of the cam shaft is to much for the original bolts (just a few threads are used if the locking tool is mounted).

I do not have a picture but if you look in the Workshop manual chapter 10 page 21, picture 4 (P3W21AX04) you can see it.

There is also a video on youtube https://youtu.be/3Af8l_PCuoE if you look at the 19 minutes 44 seconds point of time, you can clearly see the difference in height.

Again if one is carefull there is no need for longer bolts but most alternative tool suppliers do deliver them with the longer (50mm) bolts.

By the way, I have the original ones (ordered right in 1997 with the car) and they came without longer bolts.
I've changed the belt twice myself and always used the original bolts but personally I would advise them to use the longer bolts (just to be sure).

Hope to have explained it comprehensible (English is not my native language).

Regards,

Frank

Thanks for the information
If the cam locks are in place why does the flywheel need to be locked ?

If you remove the belt, the crank shaft is no longer connected to the cam shafts .......

The cam lock is the correct size but it appears the cam lobe is out and needs to be aligned by a few mm
I assumed I could rotate the cam by the pulley to realign the cam lobe so the lock fits exactly

If I mark the pulley and the casing then if the flywheel moves I can realign so no need to lock the flywheel ?

Phil R said:

If I mark the pulley and the casing then if the flywheel moves I can realign so no need to lock the flywheel ?

Click to expand...

lock both or it may move when tensioning

Hi Phil,

The "problem" is that when you put the new belt on it is difficult to prevent moving the camshafts, hence the locking tool (as Dave rightly noted).
Putting on the new cam belt will require force (hence the 2 blocking tools, although most people do not use the flywheel locking tools since - if you put it in first gear - it will not move easily from it's position).

Just make sure that the tool is the right one (there is one for the M1 and another one for the M2 engine)!
If it is the correct one, make sure it fits (you can loosen the 4 "ribe" bolts on the inlet cam shaft a little and it should be possible to secure the locking tool in the correct position).

If the old belt cam was mounted correctly (I have to assume), like I wrote in my innitial respons: mark the old cam belt and the 3 mentioned pullys, copy the marks to the new cam belt so it will be an extra check once mounted.

again, good luck!

Frank

Phil,

Before I forget: important (though it is also mentioned in the manual) put the belt first on the crankshaft pulley and then anti-clockwise on the outlet cam shaft subsequently on the inlet cam shaft .....

So if you have the belt marked and the marking on the crank shaft pulley is at the same place all the other markings should be on the same position as the old cam belt.

Frank

Frank

Thanks for your help
It is the exhaust camshaft lobe that is slightly out
The locks are the correct ones
There are white lines across the old and new timing belts can these be used as alignment guides maybe

No, these are not usable as suchs

Picture of the outlet-cam-not-in-line-with-locking-tool?

I've not done this job but it appears to me that, as you only say you're aligning the cams, is it the inlet cam that is out or the exhaust.
I'd be very careful as it could be either that is incorrectly timed ie if you locked the exhaust then the inlet would be out and the lock not fit.
I've watched the videos (in German) on doing the work and maybe that is why they use a clock gauge to check the correct crank position (??) before fitting the locks.
Take your time and double check to be sure.

Best of luck

Yellofrankcar said:

Hi S130,

The locking blocks are higher than the cam shaft bearing caps, so you better use longer screws if you want to apply force, hence the 50mm M7 bolts.
Using the original cam shaft bearing bolts on the locking blocks is sufficient for just checking the cam shaft position but if you loosen the toothed pulleys (e.g. from the inlet cam shaft) and don't hold the pulley in place it is possible that the load due to the torsion of the cam shaft is to much for the original bolts (just a few threads are used if the locking tool is mounted).

I do not have a picture but if you look in the Workshop manual chapter 10 page 21, picture 4 (P3W21AX04) you can see it.

There is also a video on youtube https://youtu.be/3Af8l_PCuoE if you look at the 19 minutes 44 seconds point of time, you can clearly see the difference in height.

Again if one is carefull there is no need for longer bolts but most alternative tool suppliers do deliver them with the longer (50mm) bolts.

By the way, I have the original ones (ordered right in 1997 with the car) and they came without longer bolts.
I've changed the belt twice myself and always used the original bolts but personally I would advise them to use the longer bolts (just to be sure).

Hope to have explained it comprehensible (English is not my native language).

Regards,

Frank

Click to expand...

OK. Understand now. Personally I would never use the cam lobe timing blocks to act as a locking tool when undoing either the inlet cam variator or or exhaust cam sprocket. Those timing block are only soft alloy/aluminium.

I too have done this cam belt change several times.

The first time I used the cam lobe timing blocks and then via the inspection hole on top of the gearbox bell housing checked that the timing was at TDC. (just checking the factory got this right ) Also put a crank lock on.

When fitting the belt I did not have to loosen the exhaust camshaft sprocket as the belt from crank to exhaust spocket was a perfect snug fit with tension on the belt between the two. Continued to fit belt around inlet cam sprocket, water pump and tensioner. Released tensioner and then checked crank. Correctly set tensioner and then hand cycled the engine 3 revs and checked everyting again.

The other times I just set the crank (via bell housing timing window) and then accurately marked everything up. (also used the crank timing tool for the 1.9MJet engine as an extended pointer so I could easily check that the crank was not moved).

Personally (I must have done getting on for 30 cam belt changes) on the "B" the reason I did not use the cam lobe timing blocks is that the rocker box cover gasker is notorious for not sealing properly always resulting with oil misting at the cam shaft sprocket end. Even when additional silicon sealent is applied. Can take several goes to get a good seal.

From new (factory) our previous Punto HGT (same engine) and our Barchetta quickly developed problems with this gasket seal. Hence, once sorted better left alone as long as you a competant an competent and meticulous about doing the cam belt change by marking up etc. **AND** the belt is a perfect fit from crank to exhaust sprocket. If not they you will have to start from scratch with cam timing blocks, crank locking AND adjusting the exhaust cam sprocket position by loosening it.

If the

Hi s130,

Reason that I asked (Phil) for a picture from the current situation, is that I wanted to see why / how much play there was between locking tool and camshaft.
Especially the exhaust cam since there is where there are differences between the M1 (183) and the M2 (188) cam shafts (if I recall correctly).
Because I have never seen a real difference between locking tool and cam shafts and it worries me a little (reason I asked to check the tool engine combination).

Reason I used the locking tool is the fact that I changed the variator twice (first time because the "diesel sound" occurred the second time as a precaution).
By the way, variator: the only variator that ever broke down is the one with which my Barchetta left the factory (I never really understood what broke down to be honest).
You are right, one should not overload the locking tool, but .... it happens sometimes in the heat of the moment (also if one does not have all the correct tools it happens even faster ).
Regarding leaking cam cover, I must be lucky since I have not experienced it (I use always a new elring seal set and clean everything very meticulously).

I work a lot on Ducati motorcycles and they all have (2) cam belts (and need to have them changed every 3 years due to a max. rpm of 8.500 plus) and there I learned to mark the belt / pulleys in order to not mess up the timing (a double check so to say).
Changing cam belts is not really difficult but most of the people who want to tackle this job do not have / lack the deep knowledge of the principle of the distribution of an engine - no offence to them.

Only issue for me is the lack of space (in particular the version with the airco).

I hope Phil succeeds in his task.

Frank

Phil sorry, I can't help myself, just to be sure: here you see a picture from both the M1 (grey) and M2 (gold) exhaust cam shaft locking tool.
Easier to identify: the M1 locking tool (183 engine) has the top at half past 12 and the M2 locking tool (188 engine) has the the top at exactly 12 o'clock.

Regards,

Frank