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Old 15-12-2008   #31
Rosso Corsa of corsa!!!
 
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Re: Is it dead?

Wow, just read the thread end to end for the first time and it sounds as if you have had the worse induction to b ownership of anyone on the forum so far!!

If I were in your position (that is not having to use the car on a daily basis), I think I would go down the route of a strip down and re-build. Generally speaking the b's lump is bulletproof and yours is the first one I have heard of with any kind of engine failure. As you quite rightly say its difficult to know if the broken tensioner is a symptom or a cause.

Get the head off, check for obvious damage and change the head gaskets while its apart. Change the variator, tensioner and followers along with the water pump. The drop the sump and have a good poke around for any obvious issues on the bottom end.

Quite a bit of effort involved but once its done you won't need to worry about it again. Also, there would be nothing worse than going through all of this heartache, getting it back together and running then finding 10 mins down the road that A - the head gasket is shagged, or B - the cause of the failed tensioner is still there!

Good luck either way
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Old 16-12-2008   #32
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Re: Is it dead?

Sorry mate would have replied earlier but it's been another one of those days just don't know how many more I can take.

I still wish you luck sorting this and yes WMWO aka Karen is a star
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Old 16-12-2008   #33
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Re: Is it dead?

Final question and then i will leave you allt o enjoy your Xmas whilst I start battling with the engine! Is it at all possible this is due to the variator? From my reading the solenoid for the variator operates at 3,000rpm. Could the variator have caused the inlet cam to sieze, thus putting a lot of strain on the tensioner guide pulley and causing the graphite pulley to shatter?

I can see the reasoning behind removing the head and changing the variator etc has anyone seen a guide to changing the variator anywhere? I have had a look but cant see anything. Is it just a case of removing the inlet cam camshaft pulley, one out and one in?

Ta

Chris

Oh and as for the worst introduction, I cant explain it yet but I am sure this must be down to the flushing oil being too thin for 3,000 rpm! In which case it is my fault, i dont mind admitting I made a mistake, learning from it and moving on but it really annoys me when i cant understand why something failed and thus cant rule it out happening again!
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Old 16-12-2008   #34
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Re: Is it dead?

I can't see how that could happen. Anyone else?

PS. Good spot Karen!!!!
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Old 16-12-2008   #35
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Re: Is it dead?

Can't see that happening either. Don't think the variator bearing could seize.
And the low end bearings are usually the ones to fail first due to unsufficient lubrification.

See http://home.hccnet.nl/jaap.bouma/PhaseVariator.htm for variator guide.

I'd suggest that you remove the cylinder head first, see the damage and either re-condition the head or buy a used one. And then you'll have a new head gasket and belt.
No reason to remove the engine block unless it's really necessary, since you'll need to remove the gearbox too and that'll take time.
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Old 16-12-2008   #36
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Re: Is it dead?

Quote Originally Posted by LittleRedB View Post
Wow, just read the thread end to end for the first time and it sounds as if you have had the worse induction to b ownership of anyone on the forum so far!!
Bought my b 2006 and broke my crankshaft bearing on an autobahn after owning it for less then 2 days and 500km. But I have to say it was fun while it lasted, and the b doesn't feel that bad around 200km/h.

Got an used replacement engine, still have 3 piston with cranks and some other low end parts if someone is in need...
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Old 16-12-2008   #37
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Re: Is it dead?

Ikka, thanks for the link, I read with interest the comment "Note the white timing belt tensioner wheel, which is the upgraded type. If yours is black, be very thankful that it’s still in one piece." Thus suggesting that failure of this component may be a well know thing in Alfa circles!

Anyway, i am planning on lifting the head between xmas and new year, for now I am just going over all the bolts once a day with some duck oil penetrating fluid and getting a shopping list together, its hard to know what to buy! If I get the ehad off and find its ok, then I would want all the bits to put it all back together but if I take it apart and find its knackered then i dont want to have spent a load of money when i am going to ahve to change the thing anyway! Anyway nay mind, will make sure I have all the tools I need first, finding a tool for the head bolts is a bit mistifying at the moment, I have the smaller sizes but not one that big! I will probably spend the next few nights removing the sump and removing the big end bearings to see what condition they are in.

Does anyone know if the head bolts and big end cap bolts can be reused?

Ta

Chris
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Old 16-12-2008   #38
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Re: Is it dead?

Any engine I've ever built has reused the head bolts but you wouldn't get as far as a bottom end rebuild and NOT replace the big end bolts, surely?

You could be lucky and not need to go that far but I suspect the pistons will have at least some damage (which you might get away with if it's minor, at least you weren't doing 90 on the motorway) and the bores are likely to have some metallic debris which will need carefully removing at the very least although more severe bore damage is very possible.

Best case you'll need new valves, springs and guides, cam bearing shells, gaskets, new belts, tensioners, variator, oil, grinding paste, plus other sundry odds and ends and the experience of knowing that Fiat cambelt, variator and tensioner service intervals are best kept to.

Worst case you can probably guess.
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Last edited by Twilight Johnny Atom; 16-12-2008 at 18:43.
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Old 16-12-2008   #39
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Re: Is it dead?

I wasnt really planning on a bottom end re-build, just taking a few bearing shells out to see if they are knackered to see if oil starvation has occured. But am still hoping that I lift the head off and find all is ok, after all the belt didnt snap and was still turning the cams, they are just a little out of sync!! (come on its Xmas, let me dream for a few days!)
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Old 16-12-2008   #40
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Re: Is it dead?

Quote Originally Posted by topher View Post
I wasnt really planning on a bottom end re-build, just taking a few bearing shells out to see if they are knackered to see if oil starvation has occured. But am still hoping that I lift the head off and find all is ok, after all the belt didnt snap and was still turning the cams, they are just a little out of sync!! (come on its Xmas, let me dream for a few days!)
Instead of taking head off to see if valves are bent why not check valve clearances ?
If they are 10mm they're bent, if around 0.40mm they're ok

regards

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Old 16-12-2008   #41
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Re: Is it dead?

Mal, the theory being that if they are bend, they wont sit back in the head correctly and thus the clearance will be larger, seems like a good idea to me! Thanks for the suggestion.
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Old 16-12-2008   #42
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Re: Is it dead?

Quote Originally Posted by topher View Post
Mal, the theory being that if they are bend, they wont sit back in the head correctly and thus the clearance will be larger, seems like a good idea to me! Thanks for the suggestion.

My pleasure good luck !
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Old 20-12-2008   #43
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Re: Is it dead?

Just a quick update, checked the valve clearances, and they were a little large, unsure as to whether this was a sign of wear and tear or not so I changed the cam belt and tensioners, set the valve timing etc and turned the engine over, did a compression test and there is nothing so its head off time but I think I will wait till the new year before I start.

Merry Xmas to one and all.
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Old 20-12-2008   #44
Rosso Corsa of corsa!!!
 
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Re: Is it dead?

Ah, bad luck fella - foget about it for the time being and have a great Christmas!
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Old 21-12-2008   #45
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Re: Is it dead?

Well one bit of good news is that I have found a low mileage replacement for 380 + 36 del from a known german supplier. I have contacted a few reconditioners, one in Cheshire has one on the shelf (according to their website) so I have emailed them for a price, I think that 380 cant be too far off the cost of a fully reconned unit with warranty but maybe I am wrong. Anyway, back to spraying all the bolts with Duck oil to try to actually remove something without the head shearing off (had 6 so far!).
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