Matt, I have turned the bearing and it feels to rotate smoothly, nothing appears to be wrong with it, but I will replace it anyway. I have got hold of a borescope so will see if it can double back on itself enough to look at the valves through the spark plug holes and see if they look OK. If it cant double back far enough then at least I can have a good look at the pistons, if the valves did hit the pistons, surely there must be a witness mark of somekind. The borescope can record video so i will see if I can post it on the web for all to view as a matter of interest!
Technical Is it dead?
- Thread starter topher
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Technical Is it dead?
Twilight Johnny Atom
New member
How long since the tensioner was last changed?
I don't think there's any 'what caused it to fail' - they do have a life span and they do fail. The bad news is it's not usually pretty when a tensioner fails. The belt jumps a tooth or seven and loads of bits of metal which are spinning and jumping around at 50 times a second bash into each other.
You're going to need to pull the head off and see how expensive it's likely to be I'm afraid.
I don't think there's any 'what caused it to fail' - they do have a life span and they do fail. The bad news is it's not usually pretty when a tensioner fails. The belt jumps a tooth or seven and loads of bits of metal which are spinning and jumping around at 50 times a second bash into each other.
You're going to need to pull the head off and see how expensive it's likely to be I'm afraid.
Rustbucket
Established member
Curious though that part choose to fail when you'd been working on the engine. Silly question but you didn't fiddle with anything or drop a small socket in the works anywhere?
I only ask as I was that soldier who lost a 6mm socket from the box..couldn't find it anywhere. Until i started Dad's Volvo and there was a juicy crunching noise when the fans came on..the socket was jammed in the fan blades..
I only ask as I was that soldier who lost a 6mm socket from the box..couldn't find it anywhere. Until i started Dad's Volvo and there was a juicy crunching noise when the fans came on..the socket was jammed in the fan blades..
Mr Rust bucket, you are very correct, the only work done at the time was that it had flushing oil in rather than engine oil, it had been running at tickover for about 8 mins before I reved it gently, then it went ping!
Thus I am concerned that the tensioner fail is not the cause but actually a symtom. Anyway will see what i can see with the borescope tonight. thanks for the comments.
Thus I am concerned that the tensioner fail is not the cause but actually a symtom. Anyway will see what i can see with the borescope tonight. thanks for the comments.
And finally I can answer my initial question, IS IT DEAD?? YES IT IS!!!
The camera ont he borescope is not the best but each piston has 4 nice "half moon" shaped dents in it. So I think that is is chaps, new engine required.
Are there any differences between engines? Do I just need a Barchetta or Punto HGT engine or does it have to be a specific year? I think there are 2 engine codes but are there any differences that matter (i.e. ecu or electrics)
The camera ont he borescope is not the best but each piston has 4 nice "half moon" shaped dents in it. So I think that is is chaps, new engine required.
Are there any differences between engines? Do I just need a Barchetta or Punto HGT engine or does it have to be a specific year? I think there are 2 engine codes but are there any differences that matter (i.e. ecu or electrics)
Hi just to let you know that it's the same engine in most ways as my sons old 18 bravo and when a valve burnt out we took the top off and all the pistons have 4 half moon cut outs in the pistons for the engine to have the clearance neede for the valves. I don't think engine dead from that reason.
hope that helps
hope that helps
Can I confirm with you, are you suggesting those half moons are standard and not the result of the pistons hitting the valves? Or are you saying that even if they hit, the engine is still fine with the damage to the pistons, just need to sort the head out?
Thanks
Chris
Thanks
Chris
on my sons bravo 1.8 these cut outs are standard believe they are the same on b.
Mr "Wish Mine Was Orange" I dont know how you managed to do it but you just turned my glass of red wine change from comiseration wine to the finest celebration wine known to man! Back to the the original lift the head off plan, I was sure that all pistons were dome topped and had never come across ones with a cut out for the valves. But looking on EPER it shows the cut outs on the pistons
http://eper.fiatforum.com/eper/navi...=3&WINDOW_ID=1&SGRP_COD=5&SGS_COD=0&DRW_NUM=2
THanks very much for reading my trials and tribulations!
Chris
http://eper.fiatforum.com/eper/navi...=3&WINDOW_ID=1&SGRP_COD=5&SGS_COD=0&DRW_NUM=2
THanks very much for reading my trials and tribulations!
Chris
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no problem. They'er shaped that way for clearance for the valves. If they had hit that hard the pistons would have completly cracked and would be in pieces. But having sons car stripped down I know that piston shape when I see it.
Wow, just read the thread end to end for the first time and it sounds as if you have had the worse induction to b ownership of anyone on the forum so far!!
If I were in your position (that is not having to use the car on a daily basis), I think I would go down the route of a strip down and re-build. Generally speaking the b's lump is bulletproof and yours is the first one I have heard of with any kind of engine failure. As you quite rightly say its difficult to know if the broken tensioner is a symptom or a cause.
Get the head off, check for obvious damage and change the head gaskets while its apart. Change the variator, tensioner and followers along with the water pump. The drop the sump and have a good poke around for any obvious issues on the bottom end.
Quite a bit of effort involved but once its done you won't need to worry about it again. Also, there would be nothing worse than going through all of this heartache, getting it back together and running then finding 10 mins down the road that A - the head gasket is shagged, or B - the cause of the failed tensioner is still there!
Good luck either way
If I were in your position (that is not having to use the car on a daily basis), I think I would go down the route of a strip down and re-build. Generally speaking the b's lump is bulletproof and yours is the first one I have heard of with any kind of engine failure. As you quite rightly say its difficult to know if the broken tensioner is a symptom or a cause.
Get the head off, check for obvious damage and change the head gaskets while its apart. Change the variator, tensioner and followers along with the water pump. The drop the sump and have a good poke around for any obvious issues on the bottom end.
Quite a bit of effort involved but once its done you won't need to worry about it again. Also, there would be nothing worse than going through all of this heartache, getting it back together and running then finding 10 mins down the road that A - the head gasket is shagged, or B - the cause of the failed tensioner is still there!
Good luck either way
Sorry mate would have replied earlier but it's been another one of those days :bang: just don't know how many more I can take.
I still wish you luck sorting this and yes WMWO aka Karen is a star
I still wish you luck sorting this and yes WMWO aka Karen is a star
Final question and then i will leave you allt o enjoy your Xmas whilst I start battling with the engine! Is it at all possible this is due to the variator? From my reading the solenoid for the variator operates at 3,000rpm. Could the variator have caused the inlet cam to sieze, thus putting a lot of strain on the tensioner guide pulley and causing the graphite pulley to shatter?
I can see the reasoning behind removing the head and changing the variator etc has anyone seen a guide to changing the variator anywhere? I have had a look but cant see anything. Is it just a case of removing the inlet cam camshaft pulley, one out and one in?
Ta
Chris
Oh and as for the worst introduction, I cant explain it yet but I am sure this must be down to the flushing oil being too thin for 3,000 rpm! In which case it is my fault, i dont mind admitting I made a mistake, learning from it and moving on but it really annoys me when i cant understand why something failed and thus cant rule it out happening again!
I can see the reasoning behind removing the head and changing the variator etc has anyone seen a guide to changing the variator anywhere? I have had a look but cant see anything. Is it just a case of removing the inlet cam camshaft pulley, one out and one in?
Ta
Chris
Oh and as for the worst introduction, I cant explain it yet but I am sure this must be down to the flushing oil being too thin for 3,000 rpm! In which case it is my fault, i dont mind admitting I made a mistake, learning from it and moving on but it really annoys me when i cant understand why something failed and thus cant rule it out happening again!
Can't see that happening either. Don't think the variator bearing could seize.
And the low end bearings are usually the ones to fail first due to unsufficient lubrification.
See http://home.hccnet.nl/jaap.bouma/PhaseVariator.htm for variator guide.
I'd suggest that you remove the cylinder head first, see the damage and either re-condition the head or buy a used one. And then you'll have a new head gasket and belt.
No reason to remove the engine block unless it's really necessary, since you'll need to remove the gearbox too and that'll take time.
And the low end bearings are usually the ones to fail first due to unsufficient lubrification.
See http://home.hccnet.nl/jaap.bouma/PhaseVariator.htm for variator guide.
I'd suggest that you remove the cylinder head first, see the damage and either re-condition the head or buy a used one. And then you'll have a new head gasket and belt.
No reason to remove the engine block unless it's really necessary, since you'll need to remove the gearbox too and that'll take time.
Bought my b 2006 and broke my crankshaft bearing on an autobahn after owning it for less then 2 days and 500km. But I have to say it was fun while it lasted, and the b doesn't feel that bad around 200km/h.
Got an used replacement engine, still have 3 piston with cranks and some other low end parts if someone is in need...
Ikka, thanks for the link, I read with interest the comment "Note the white timing belt tensioner wheel, which is the upgraded type. If yours is black, be very thankful that it’s still in one piece." Thus suggesting that failure of this component may be a well know thing in Alfa circles!
Anyway, i am planning on lifting the head between xmas and new year, for now I am just going over all the bolts once a day with some duck oil penetrating fluid and getting a shopping list together, its hard to know what to buy! If I get the ehad off and find its ok, then I would want all the bits to put it all back together but if I take it apart and find its knackered then i dont want to have spent a load of money when i am going to ahve to change the thing anyway! Anyway nay mind, will make sure I have all the tools I need first, finding a tool for the head bolts is a bit mistifying at the moment, I have the smaller sizes but not one that big! I will probably spend the next few nights removing the sump and removing the big end bearings to see what condition they are in.
Does anyone know if the head bolts and big end cap bolts can be reused?
Ta
Chris
Anyway, i am planning on lifting the head between xmas and new year, for now I am just going over all the bolts once a day with some duck oil penetrating fluid and getting a shopping list together, its hard to know what to buy! If I get the ehad off and find its ok, then I would want all the bits to put it all back together but if I take it apart and find its knackered then i dont want to have spent a load of money when i am going to ahve to change the thing anyway! Anyway nay mind, will make sure I have all the tools I need first, finding a tool for the head bolts is a bit mistifying at the moment, I have the smaller sizes but not one that big! I will probably spend the next few nights removing the sump and removing the big end bearings to see what condition they are in.
Does anyone know if the head bolts and big end cap bolts can be reused?
Ta
Chris
Twilight Johnny Atom
New member
Any engine I've ever built has reused the head bolts but you wouldn't get as far as a bottom end rebuild and NOT replace the big end bolts, surely?
You could be lucky and not need to go that far but I suspect the pistons will have at least some damage (which you might get away with if it's minor, at least you weren't doing 90 on the motorway) and the bores are likely to have some metallic debris which will need carefully removing at the very least although more severe bore damage is very possible.
Best case you'll need new valves, springs and guides, cam bearing shells, gaskets, new belts, tensioners, variator, oil, grinding paste, plus other sundry odds and ends and the experience of knowing that Fiat cambelt, variator and tensioner service intervals are best kept to.
Worst case you can probably guess.
You could be lucky and not need to go that far but I suspect the pistons will have at least some damage (which you might get away with if it's minor, at least you weren't doing 90 on the motorway) and the bores are likely to have some metallic debris which will need carefully removing at the very least although more severe bore damage is very possible.
Best case you'll need new valves, springs and guides, cam bearing shells, gaskets, new belts, tensioners, variator, oil, grinding paste, plus other sundry odds and ends and the experience of knowing that Fiat cambelt, variator and tensioner service intervals are best kept to.
Worst case you can probably guess.
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I wasnt really planning on a bottom end re-build, just taking a few bearing shells out to see if they are knackered to see if oil starvation has occured. But am still hoping that I lift the head off and find all is ok, after all the belt didnt snap and was still turning the cams, they are just a little out of sync!! (come on its Xmas, let me dream for a few days!)
Instead of taking head off to see if valves are bent why not check valve clearances ?
If they are 10mm they're bent, if around 0.40mm they're ok
regards
Mal
