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Old 14-12-2008   #16
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Re: Is it dead?

I have an old cambelt here and I have a feeling I may have an old tensioner as well (will check in the shed tomorrow. If they are of any use to you to check things out you can have them. (may take a while to arrive in the uk though, if anyone there kept the old parts then you would get them sooner).

If the engine failed to turn over by hand I think there may be more damage than the obvious.

I think alans advice is worth following. but I would try to use 2nd hand parts if available to check that nothing else is screwed up. If after setting things up turn eng over by hand if ok do a compression test. (if something has broken / siezed inside then I guess hte engine is already toast?

Have a feeling a new engine from the scrappers may be the cheapest option?

I have never seen a tensioner break before... ??
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Old 14-12-2008   #17
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Re: Is it dead?

Quote Originally Posted by topher View Post
Nino, Can you explain why you think the bottom end may have gone, do you mean the bottom end may have gone and this caused the tesnioner to destroy itself or are you meaning the tensioner failing may result in the bottom end being wrecked - and if so the only damage could really be damage to the pistons where they have met the valves - does it really cause so much damage to the pistons after only a few seconds running?

Thanks for the reply.

Regards

Chris

Chris
Sorry I can not help, it just sounds like my Brovs car when he tried the same and the bottom end (the bottom of the engine) was the fault afterwards. I could be talking total crap.
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Old 15-12-2008   #18
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Re: Is it dead?

Quote Originally Posted by topher View Post
the oil mayu have a bit of water in it from condensation but that is probably wishful thinking!
It is highly likely if the car wasn't getting used much I used to get lots of condensation in the 735 if I made short journeys and did see it often in the B.

I know the options are a bit vague (sorry) My only fear is that as the valves are very hard steel it makes them very brittle, it's more than likely that they are ok but wouldn't be planning a trip to France for the first few hundered miles
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Old 15-12-2008   #19
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Re: Is it dead?

Morning, the engine did turn over on the starter it just made a horrible noise, I put it down to the valves and pistons repeatedly hitting but now I have removed all the graphite from the cam belt area, the engine does now turn over by hand and feels OK to be honest! I can see the valve timing is out so the belt did slip (as indicated by painted marks on the cam from last belt change). I think i will try get the head off tonight and take a peak. If the head looks OK and the bottom end turns over freely then re-assemble with new gaskets and then replace belt and tensioner. I can see that a rush job is not the best way forward, we dont need the car as a daily runner so better to take a month and do it properly.

As for the tensioner failing, it is just a bearing, not connected to anything so I cant see how a failure in any part of the engine would cause that graphite sprocket to shatter. The only thing I could come up with was that the engine siezed, the belt got really tight and that caused it to shatter but I just can never see it happening!

If an engine change is needed, then so be it, I have rung a local scrappy who appears to have a 1999 Barchetta on its website but this place is known for being expensive. Will give them a shout though as it is just around the corner from me. You never know, xmas time, someone wants to get a few beers for the lads, may get it cheap enough.

Ta ta for now
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Old 15-12-2008   #20
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Re: Is it dead?

I've never heard of that happening before. I did have an old Nissan that managed to wrench out it's rocker bolts but I can't imagine what could have cause the tensioner to fail. I suppose it could just be a bearing locking up.....

Let''s hope the valves are OK and you don't need to skim the head!

Good luck.
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Old 15-12-2008   #21
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Re: Is it dead?

Matt, I have turned the bearing and it feels to rotate smoothly, nothing appears to be wrong with it, but I will replace it anyway. I have got hold of a borescope so will see if it can double back on itself enough to look at the valves through the spark plug holes and see if they look OK. If it cant double back far enough then at least I can have a good look at the pistons, if the valves did hit the pistons, surely there must be a witness mark of somekind. The borescope can record video so i will see if I can post it on the web for all to view as a matter of interest!
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Old 15-12-2008   #22
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Re: Is it dead?

How long since the tensioner was last changed?

I don't think there's any 'what caused it to fail' - they do have a life span and they do fail. The bad news is it's not usually pretty when a tensioner fails. The belt jumps a tooth or seven and loads of bits of metal which are spinning and jumping around at 50 times a second bash into each other.

You're going to need to pull the head off and see how expensive it's likely to be I'm afraid.
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Old 15-12-2008   #23
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Re: Is it dead?

Curious though that part choose to fail when you'd been working on the engine. Silly question but you didn't fiddle with anything or drop a small socket in the works anywhere?

I only ask as I was that soldier who lost a 6mm socket from the box..couldn't find it anywhere. Until i started Dad's Volvo and there was a juicy crunching noise when the fans came on..the socket was jammed in the fan blades..
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Old 15-12-2008   #24
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Re: Is it dead?

Mr Rust bucket, you are very correct, the only work done at the time was that it had flushing oil in rather than engine oil, it had been running at tickover for about 8 mins before I reved it gently, then it went ping!

Thus I am concerned that the tensioner fail is not the cause but actually a symtom. Anyway will see what i can see with the borescope tonight. thanks for the comments.
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Old 15-12-2008   #25
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Re: Is it dead?

And finally I can answer my initial question, IS IT DEAD?? YES IT IS!!!

The camera ont he borescope is not the best but each piston has 4 nice "half moon" shaped dents in it. So I think that is is chaps, new engine required.

Are there any differences between engines? Do I just need a Barchetta or Punto HGT engine or does it have to be a specific year? I think there are 2 engine codes but are there any differences that matter (i.e. ecu or electrics)



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Old 15-12-2008   #26
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Re: Is it dead?

Hi just to let you know that it's the same engine in most ways as my sons old 18 bravo and when a valve burnt out we took the top off and all the pistons have 4 half moon cut outs in the pistons for the engine to have the clearance neede for the valves. I don't think engine dead from that reason.

hope that helps
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Old 15-12-2008   #27
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Re: Is it dead?

Can I confirm with you, are you suggesting those half moons are standard and not the result of the pistons hitting the valves? Or are you saying that even if they hit, the engine is still fine with the damage to the pistons, just need to sort the head out?

Thanks

Chris
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Old 15-12-2008   #28
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Re: Is it dead?

on my sons bravo 1.8 these cut outs are standard believe they are the same on b.
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Old 15-12-2008   #29
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Re: Is it dead?

Mr "Wish Mine Was Orange" I dont know how you managed to do it but you just turned my glass of red wine change from comiseration wine to the finest celebration wine known to man! Back to the the original lift the head off plan, I was sure that all pistons were dome topped and had never come across ones with a cut out for the valves. But looking on EPER it shows the cut outs on the pistons

http://eper.fiatforum.com/eper/navi?...OD=0&DRW_NUM=2

THanks very much for reading my trials and tribulations!

Chris
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Last edited by topher; 15-12-2008 at 22:09.
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Old 15-12-2008   #30
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Re: Is it dead?

no problem. They'er shaped that way for clearance for the valves. If they had hit that hard the pistons would have completly cracked and would be in pieces. But having sons car stripped down I know that piston shape when I see it.
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