Coronavirus - The Thread :(

[DaveMcT]

Coronavirus - Takes Tim Brook-Taylor

We are now going to sing one Tune to the Song of another... Which, of course must not be confused with One Song to the Tune of Another. As we know, that's where Willie sings and Tim sucks on a metholated sweet.

Sadly just as the great maestro (Humphrey Lyttelton) left us some years ago there will be no more of Tim singing. Tim Brooke-Taylor (79) today lost his battle with by Covid-19 .

 

[torniojaws]

Viruses cannot survive for long outside the host. Flu in mucus deactivates as the material cools. Others cannot tolerate the lactic acid build up in dead bodies. Who know CV-19 will survive for days on surfaces but it should die soon enough.

According to some research articles, it survives up to 24 hours on cardboard surface, and up to 3 days on certain materials like copper and brass (commonly found on doorhandles, clothing buttons, etc).

But one German research spent a while measuring surfaces inside a house where a couple (both actively infected) currently lived and could not extract any living virus from any surface.

So, it's still quite iffy, but it does appear the only realistic way to get infected is to:

1. Get sneezed/coughed on by an infected person
2. Spend a decent amount of time nearby an infected person. Say, at a concert, or in a church - where the majority of European infections have started.
3. Running behind an infected person also seems to be a high-risk situation.

 

[portland_bill]

[*]Running behind an infected person also seems to be a high-risk situation.

Some way back there was a link to an interview with a Korean doctor, very informative. It seems that normal breath expels spittle, which hits the ground within 2 metres. Shouting and singing project it further, with the risk that it will dry out in the air, leaving the virus aerosolised and airborne.

It makes sense that those running or cylcing will be breathing more heavily, and any expelled virus will be airborne for longer. For me, those jogging, running or cycling should do it away from pedestrians.

In the supermarket queues, people like to be sociable, and whilst it is possible to speak normally whilst 2m away, many tend to shout instead. The 2m separation queueing only makes sense if people do not shout. I have upset a few already by asking them to be quieter.

 

[dave]

According to some research articles, it survives up to 24 hours on cardboard surface, and up to 3 days on certain materials like copper and brass (commonly found on doorhandles, clothing buttons, etc).

research i heard on the tv said copper was the thing it stuck to for the lest time door handles though if there are any copper ones will probably clear coated.

https://www.copper.org/applications/antimicrobial/COVID-19.html

 

[dave]

https://inews.co.uk/news/health/cov...UlaCJ7bg1M_TRXkny6y_oc4sMHKLcGbST0P-6FvZ4LPiU

over 8 points you dont go to icu
People who are terminally ill, with a life expectancy of less than six months, are assigned nine points.
my cousin got 6 months in 2013 he died a couple of weeks ago
government are rubbing their hands together with glee adding up all the pension and social care money they are going to save

 

[AndyRKett]

https://inews.co.uk/news/health/cov...UlaCJ7bg1M_TRXkny6y_oc4sMHKLcGbST0P-6FvZ4LPiU

over 8 points you dont go to icu
People who are terminally ill, with a life expectancy of less than six months, are assigned nine points.
my cousin got 6 months in 2013 he died a couple of weeks ago
government are rubbing their hands together with glee adding up all the pension and social care money they are going to save

This just formalises something that has been around for years. People often don’t survive itu, if someone is terminal then what’s the point in putting them in intensive care to try and keep them alive if the outcome will still be they die.

The same with an 85 year old with heart problems, diabetes, COPD and they they go into hospital with a perforated bowel, there little to be gained from sending these people to intensive care. Also note it is just guidance, doctors don’t have to follow it, but in essence it’s something that has existed in one form or another for years.

Same as DNAR orders, there is no point trying CPR who is very elderly,
Very frail, and even if you managed to get them back they might only last a few hours of a couple of days.

Intensive care is not pretty, it’s not dignified and it’s not a nice place to be, CPR is also not nice, it’s horrible for the family to witness and it’s a terrible way for someone’s life to end.

Don’t listen to these stories they are the media’s shock and awe tacktics to sell a few headlines when really there is no story there, they just want to create some moral outrage.

 

[dave]

This just formalises something that has been around for years. People often don’t survive itu, if someone is terminal then what’s the point in putting them in intensive care to try and keep them alive if the outcome will still be they die.

The same with an 85 year old with heart problems, diabetes, COPD and they they go into hospital with a perforated bowel, there little to be gained from sending these people to intensive care. Also note it is just guidance, doctors don’t have to follow it, but in essence it’s something that has existed in one form or another for years.

Same as DNAR orders, there is no point trying CPR who is very elderly,
Very frail, and even if you managed to get them back they might only last a few hours of a couple of days.

Intensive care is not pretty, it’s not dignified and it’s not a nice place to be, CPR is also not nice, it’s horrible for the family to witness and it’s a terrible way for someone’s life to end.

Don’t listen to these stories they are the media’s shock and awe tacktics to sell a few headlines when really there is no story there, they just want to create some moral outrage.

but i have 5 points already that they could easily round up with
“There may be situations arising that are outside the scope of the framework that require special consideration, thus clinical discretion will continue to apply,” the document states.
“Frailty scoring is used as a proxy for physiological frailty which leads to reduced chances of recovery in ICU [Intensive Care Units], therefore where conditions [that] pre-exist impact on physical activity but are stable and inappropriately affect the score, then that situation requires special consideration.”

and like i said with my cousin they can say someone only has 6 months left and give them 9 points, but he went on for 7 years. why take away 7 years of someones life

 

[portland_bill]

We make the same decisions ourselves regularly. As a car gets older, the potential fro things to go wrong increase. Whilst we love our cars, there comes a time where we have to decide to stop pouring money into a lost cause, so we scrap it.

An easier decision with a car than with a person, but the same principles apply. Why spend thousands on immediate care, taking space and resources that might be better applied to another, to try to maintain a life that will inevitably end in a very short time anyway. With a detached view, even that decision is difficult, for those that are close, heartbreaking. Sadly, there are doctors having to make these decisions daily, I doubt it is easy for them.

 

[Bernievarian]

According to some research articles, it does appear the only realistic way to get infected is to:

1. ...
2. Running behind an infected person also seems to be a high-risk situation.

FP2 (Fart-Proof Too) Ass Masks are currently being tested ...


Stay safe and take care, but keep the good mood ! Bernie

 

[DaveMcT]

We make the same decisions ourselves regularly. As a car gets older, the potential fro things to go wrong increase. Whilst we love our cars, there comes a time where we have to decide to stop pouring money into a lost cause, so we scrap it.

An easier decision with a car than with a person, but the same principles apply. Why spend thousands on immediate care, taking space and resources that might be better applied to another, to try to maintain a life that will inevitably end in a very short time anyway. With a detached view, even that decision is difficult, for those that are close, heartbreaking. Sadly, there are doctors having to make these decisions daily, I doubt it is easy for them.

How many time do we hear "I would not treat a dog like that". We now have many more situations where critically ill people are at the point where further intervention has little to no chance of saving them. Such decisions happen all the time in hospitals. Today we have more of them and more urgency because others need help as well.

 

[09 johno]

'the needs of the many out-way the needs of the few or one'

As sad as it may be it is the truth

 

[varesecrazy]

The Ventilator initiative..

F1 are making them.. well .. they were until they furloughed the staff

I appreciate the 'facemasks' have done well in putting off the need for more invasive support..
but surely getting a stock in place now.. before the projected peak would be sensible?

A different point:
Scrubs.. we are all told kit is in short supply.. so why do Staff wear them to / from work
In a tesco car park shoppers queue at lunchtime..??

You are either taking it in..or taking it out.. is this just habit?

 

[portland_bill]

A different point:
Scrubs.. we are all told kit is in short supply.. so why do Staff wear them to / from work
In a tesco car park shoppers queue at lunchtime..??

You are either taking it in..or taking it out.. is this just habit?

It has long puzzled me why nurses wear their uniform home and back. Surely there should be a huge locker room in the basement so the work clothes do not take contaminants out, or bring them in, but we seem to get away with it mostly. I wonder if any hospital infection is ever analysed to determine whether it was brought in on clothing.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

As I mentioned earlier in the "smiling" thread, I spent all day yesterday gardening and found it very calming with plenty of opportunity to reflect on recent events. Like many people, I would guess, I've been living day to day trying to take in what all this means for me and the ones I love. The children - my grandchildren - thankfully seem to be being spared to a large extent. We think my youngest boy has had it. With his business virtually closed down he's been making some cash doing van delivery for Sainsburys. These chaps work very hard for not a lot of money! He's been displaying most of the symptoms, especially the tiredness and the cough, for most of the last fortnight with fluctuating degrees of dysfunction and has been isolating at home. However for nearly 4 days now he's felt well and is returning to work soon when the doctor authorizes it, but without testing who knows what he's had? His wife and the kids seem absolutely fine.

By the way, They really should stop that Rab chap doing his updates on the TV. His presentational skills are abysmal. He spends more time Errring and Ummming and making strange fiddling with fingers/hands which just makes you wonder if he's making it all up as he goes along. Our Nicola is far from perfect and there is a lot of stuff I would take exception with her on but she speaks a good speak.

As a result of this and all the thinking I did yesterday whilst gardening, I've reached the firm conclusion that Mrs J and I have to do our absolute best to avoid catching it and hope that a "jag" becomes available sooner rather than later - not holding my breath on that one though. We are isolating quite effectively I think, pretty much only going out for a walk every second day and we've found a route which is very quiet. My older boy is doing our shopping and we are wearing plastic gloves to handle the goods before sanitizing packaging with bleach wipes. The plastic gloves are a source of amusement to me in that, having worked my whole life without wearing gloves to work, I bought a pack of 100 to wear when working on the cars. They really were a waste of time in that I would tear them within minutes of putting them on (didn't like the way your hands sweat inside them too). So they have been sitting on the shelf for about the last 18 months and I've gone back to my Manista. I nearly gave them away recently but the isolation meant that the chap who wanted them hasn't collected. Good thing too as they are now proving very useful.

 

[varesecrazy]

PPE has certainly advanced..
back in the day.. you put a damp hand into the box of Daz powder..
It worked very well.. shifted all the grease and oils(both automotive and human)

I remember being in I factory where they filled 2 Belfast sinks with almost boiling water
1. Get the oil out
2.Rinse the swarfega smell/taste off

30 Blokes used this system every break for decades..

Nowadays Ive got a fan driven head mask
Blue Nitrile Gloves.. a Tyvex paper disposable 'onesie'..
And a pull.up rubber mask with the spin.on cannister filters for 'bad stuff'

You do get used to it..

I do wonder if any of the NHS PPE is actually 'personally' maintained

We are issued with the items..as 'yours' to use and look after.. filter changes.. screen tear.offs etc



Father in law got a spare box of 'decorating gloves' that had been under our kitchen sink

Some had 5 fingers..and a thumb

I know he lives in a village.. but it seemed strange

 

[dave]

Some had 5 fingers..and a thumb

They are Norfolk gloves

 

[AndyRKett]

They are Norfolk gloves

Oi !!!

 

[Goudrons]

I do wonder if any of the NHS PPE is actually 'personally' maintained

Most of it is disposable, so gloves, short and long sleeve fluid resistant aprons and most masks like the standard fluid resistant face masks and some FFP3's (Filtering Face Pieces Class 3) are all worn for either individual interactions/procedures or a set length of time.

There are different levels of PPE for different procedures like standard interactions, bodily fluid exposure and aerosol generating procedures (AGP) like intubation.

Some of it is slightly different but does the same job, like FFP3 masks.
Some types require a "fit check" by someone else and some don't, though they all require a "fit test" by the wearer.

There is some reusable kit, goggles and visors can be appropriately cleaned and reused, most will hang on to a set, clean them themselves so they know they are fit for them to use again.

There are some reusable FFP3's and powered air purifying respirators (PAPR's) that can be cleaned, though some parts are disposable after use.


Long sleeve fluid resistant aprons have been making the news a bit as it is thought there might have been a shortage, something that a certain Minister didn't handle very well when he suggested items might be being wasted.

What wasn't originally made clear to everyone (not everyone needing PPE currently is used to using it regularly) was for what procedures these aprons were needed, they aren't needed for every patient interaction or procedure.

 

[Bernievarian]

Thanks for documenting the acromyms you used in your post "goudrons"
BTW, do you know it means "tar" in french ? "(swallow tar" is also used to describe driving fans..)

Cheers and stay well All, Bernie.

 

[portland_bill]

PPE has certainly advanced..
back in the day.. you put a damp hand into the box of Daz powder..
It worked very well.. shifted all the grease and oils(both automotive and human)

I remember being in I factory where they filled 2 Belfast sinks with almost boiling water
1. Get the oil out
2.Rinse the swarfega smell/taste off

Where I first started, we got oil off our hands by washing them in diesel fuel, then soap afterwards. Worked a treat.