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Old 14-07-2021   #2656
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Re: Coronavirus - The Thread :(

Quote Originally Posted by jrkitching View Post
It seems to me that current UK government policy is to let the virus spread amongst the general population and rely on vaccination to keep the death and serious illness rate down to a manageable figure.

The consequences of the vaccines failing to prevent serious illness are too horrible to contemplate, but the only reasonable alternative would be to continue with a strict lockdown policy for the forseeable future, and that's pretty horrible to contemplate, too.
I'm afraid I disagree with the way in which you've painted this as a binary choice between lifting all restrictions and continuing with a strict lockdown.

It would have been possible to open up the economy and facilitate social interaction while keeping in place the strategies that we know help to reduce transmission (masks, social distancing whenever practicable, etc), and - something that our hapless government has been criminally negligent in not pursuing more vigorously - improving ventilation in workplaces, shops, places of entertainment etc. It's as if they've learned nothing from the last 18 months.

So why have the government chosen to go down the 'lift-all-restrictions' route? The answer is that they have bowed (yet again) to the views of a very vocal, vociferous minority of their own supporters (the hard-line libertarian anti-mask brigade), who have been threatening a parliamentary revolt, and BJ doesn't want to find himself in a position where he has to rely on opposition MPs to get his Covid strategies through. And we know how successful that approach has been in other contexts, don't we, folks? (*Cough* *Brexit*)

I find it abhorrent that the freedom of fools to insist on not wearing a piece of cloth over their faces when in close proximity to others is valued more highly than the freedom of those who are especially vulnerable to Covid infection to be able to leave their homes without having their lives endangered by the thoughtlessness and selfishness of others.

So personally, I intend to continue as before, avoiding shops and public places, wearing a mask, maintaining distance, but I'm mad as hell that our government has simply left it to individuals to make their own decisions on how to act, in circumstances where those decisions may impact so profoundly on others. That's not leadership, it's a craven, spineless, pathetic abdication of responsibility.

End of rant. Stay safe, folks.
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Old 14-07-2021   #2657
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Re: Coronavirus - The Thread :(

Quote Originally Posted by jrkitching View Post
One bit of common sense has prevailed - they're keeping compulsory face masks on public transport in London.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-57826331

Just recently I've been asking shopworkers if they'd prefer their customers to keep wearing masks; the response has been a resounding 'Yes, please'.

Frontline key workers are putting their health on the line to maintain as much normality as is possible; I'll be respecting their wishes.
Well said. Me too.
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Old 14-07-2021   #2658
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Re: Coronavirus - The Thread :(

Quote Originally Posted by gar074 View Post
I'm afraid I disagree with the way in which you've painted this as a binary choice between lifting all restrictions and continuing with a strict lockdown.
On reflection, I think you're right; it didn't have to be this much of a binary choice.

I'd agree the UK's response has been heavily influenced by political considerations, rather than by an evidence-based assessment of what the virus is actually doing.
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Last edited by jrkitching; 14-07-2021 at 13:13.
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Old 15-07-2021   #2659
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Re: Coronavirus - The Thread :(

Quote Originally Posted by gar074 View Post

So personally, I intend to continue as before, avoiding shops and public places, wearing a mask, maintaining distance, but I'm mad as hell that our government has simply left it to individuals to make their own decisions on how to act, in circumstances where those decisions may impact so profoundly on others. That's not leadership, it's a craven, spineless, pathetic abdication of responsibility.
So, even though you think its wrong, you are going to take personal responsibility to protect yourself and others around you, so is the decision wrong to give a choice?

As for the ventilation (yet another band wagon being rolled out)why is it all of a sudden a governments responsibility to provide ventilation in buildings, again owners of said buildings should be responsible, in fact it is already legislated and part of the H&S at work act to provide adequate ventilation.

I do agree that the sudden ending of restrictions should be in more stages, but we are all capable to risk assess our own position and make the best decision for ourselves.
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Old 15-07-2021   #2660
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Re: Coronavirus - The Thread :(

Quote Originally Posted by 09 johno View Post
...we are all capable to risk assess our own position and make the best decision for ourselves.
Have you met the Great British public?
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Old 15-07-2021   #2661
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Re: Coronavirus - The Thread :(

Ok, i'll be fully vaccinated (twice + a fortnight) in a week but i'll not change my mask-wearing and distance keeping habits. I know that a lot of people will do the opposite. So, i consider it to be my duty to do all that i can to reduce the infection speed.
Anyway, i don't consider at least 30% of the German population to do so. In face of that i'm glad that politics in my country are helpful in a way that they are speeding down the general opening.
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Old 15-07-2021   #2662
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Re: Coronavirus - The Thread :(

Have you met the Great British public?

unfortunaley yes, I work with some great examples, had 7 positive cases in one day out of a team of 55 (all work in separate locations)of which 30% are already in isolation due to being pinged by the the track and trace app. age range 18-25......
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Old 16-07-2021   #2663
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Re: Coronavirus - The Thread :(

Quote Originally Posted by 09 johno View Post
So, even though you think its wrong, you are going to take personal responsibility to protect yourself and others around you, so is the decision wrong to give a choice?
Yes, because the issue is not about risk solely to oneself (in which case the personal choice/responsibility argument would be stronger) but risk to others. It's depressing that, 18 months into this pandemic, people still have difficulty grasping that wearing a mask (unless it's FFP2/3) is about avoiding transmission from the mask-wearer to others. As a society, we've imposed lots of restrictions on personal choice for the benefit of others (speed limits, smoking bans, etc). This is no different.

Quote Originally Posted by 09 johno View Post
I do agree that the sudden ending of restrictions should be in more stages, but we are all capable to risk assess our own position and make the best decision for ourselves.
Two points on this. First, as pointed about above, this is not just about ourselves, and the risk to ourselves. Our decisions may have life-changing implications for others. Some people unfortunately lack empathy and are only capable of thinking/caring about themselves. And secondly, you only have to look at the insane crowd behaviour last weekend to realise that many people are just too poorly informed (or in some cases too stupid) to make the best health-related decisions even for themselves.

Oh, and on ventilation, there's been virtually no change in the government guidance on ventilation in public buildings etc during the pandemic, let alone any change to the H&S regulations on the matter. The existing regulations on ventilation are not adequate to protect against transmission of a highly infectious and potentially deadly virus. Many other countries are now way ahead of us on this. Most people don't appreciate that the ventilation systems in many of the 'sheds' in which we do our shopping etc operate by recycling the air internally (especially when the heating is on, but not only then), which, given that Covid is aerosol-transmitted, is a sure-fire way of spreading the infection.

One simple step, to give customers the information they need in order to make a more informed choice about whether a shop/bar/venue is safe enough for them to enter, would be to require all premises to install a CO2 meter (not expensive), as these give a good idea of how effective the ventilation is inside.
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Old 16-07-2021   #2664
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Re: Coronavirus - The Thread :(

Moved my 2nd Vaccine appointment forward to Tomorrow in anticipation of "freedom day".

Got no plans to be doing anything differently after it for some time.

Done a few indoor things of late...not a fan until this **** has properly gone. At least I know I've had it and it did very little to me personally so my level of concern is fairly low.
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Old 17-07-2021   #2665
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Re: Coronavirus - The Thread :(

Quote Originally Posted by gar074 View Post
would be to require all premises to install a CO2 meter (not expensive), as these give a good idea of how effective the ventilation is inside.
You love the band wagon don't you, my normal working environment is inside steel boxes with recirculated ventilation (ships)
Co2 monitors in shops will not be effective as the cubic area is to large to see any significant increase, If the shop is crowded don't go in (personal responsibilty again). properly designed vent systems with active carbon scrubbers UV lights and filters are far more effective but very, very expensive.
A simple solution is to Just open the bloody windows or to wear a forced air supply face mask.
None of this needs to be in legislated for it is just common sense,
I don't need a law to tell me I have to get up in the morning and go to bed at night unless you really want to live in 1984.
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Old 17-07-2021   #2666
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Re: Coronavirus - The Thread :(

Quote Originally Posted by 09 johno View Post
None of this needs to be in legislated for it is just common sense, I don't need a law to tell me I have to get up in the morning and go to bed at night unless you really want to live in 1984.
I'm sure you don't, but that doesn't answer my main point in my previous post.
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Old 18-07-2021   #2667
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Re: Coronavirus - The Thread :(

Well I normally stay out of these types of discussions but I'll now chip in WITH NO comment or referral to other posts saying they are right, wrong, ....

My personal view is July 19 would be best apportioned/balanced to say/do:

a) Mask are legally required in all shops, transport, etc. i.e. enclosed public environments

b) Companies with employees can relax in accordance with guidelines. NOTE Employees are under direct control etc. of their employer who is legally required to comply.

c) Social Companies (pups / clubs ) should be seriously considering STRICT admissions requirements

My possibly biased / objectional view point is "Oh I just want to party, etc. *uck the rest of you". Sorry you are socially wrong, self centred and .......)

This then brings me back to government views/statements that us are all sensible. How so wrong. Most are but the minority, even larger minority don't give an F. These minority breed infections and places we do not want to go.

Time will tell and I gather other countries are looking closely now at the UK.
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Old 19-07-2021   #2668
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Re: Coronavirus - The Thread :(

Quote Originally Posted by s130 View Post
This then brings me back to government views/statements that us are all sensible.
The 'sensible majority' voted this government in, so they must be good, right?

(Not politically biased, this statement will work for any elected government, anywhere.)
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Old 19-07-2021   #2669
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Re: Coronavirus - The Thread :(

Why does the government plan changes from a Monday? Each time there have been 'releases', people go withthem from the start of the weekend, not waiting until the Monday.

There are a few vehicles missing from the street already, most went Saturday, a couple late Friday.

Now, should I book a holiday, or will I get more from booking a holiday for next door?
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Old 20-07-2021   #2670
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Re: Coronavirus - The Thread :(

Well, me and the Wife, both in our 50's, went into town yesterday for a mooch around the shops. We did of course take our masks but it became quite evident that on entering a lot of the shops, many members of shop staff had also simply stopped wearing masks and this I think influenced the decisions on some of the customers, so much so, I threw caution to the wind and stopped wearing mine. Selfish? maybe, but those that wished to wear their masks continued to do so, even in a sweltering temperature outside of 30 degrees. I will say though, there was a fair and even mix of both young people and elderly not wearing masks in the shops. I have to say though, I was a bit surprised at just how many folks who appeared to be in their late 60's up, weren't wearing masks in a crowded setting. Many were with whom I assumed to be, their own grand children, who of course weren't wearing masks anyway. I stress that what I experienced yesterday, was a real world situation. I was in a crowded seaside resort with thousands of people milling about and people were making personal judgements on their surroundings and situation.


I received my first jab four months ago and my second jab six weeks ago. Am I afraid? I have to say, honestly, no, just as I had zero hesitaton on getting both of my jabs at the earliest opportunity. I worked in the retail sector for most of last year in shop fitting/maintenance and I suffered no ill effects from Covid. Am I lucky? possibly. The way I see it though is this, we're stuck with Covid forever, it's never going to go away. We have to live (and die) with it. I'm not going to let Covid influence every single thing I do in my life. I don't let seasonal flu spoil my life. Yes I accept flu is a bit different and in the grand scheme of things against Covid, is probably not a fair comparison, but we live with seasonal flu and every year, seemingly thousands of people die from it and there isn't a big hooha about it because people stopped thinking about it long ago. In fairness, I do actually get my flu jab every year (which I pay for), so I have been mitigating the risk for several years now.


Oh, and let's mention that NHS test and trace app. I've never downloaded onto my phone and nor will I. The amount of people getting 'pinged' who may have been within several metres of someone who has allegedly tested positive for Covid, is astounding. My Wife had the App on her phone and she got 'pinged' back at Christmas time. We/she, hadn't been out for days prior to the 'ping'. It turned out that our next door neighbour with whom we had had no physical contact, did have Covid and his bluetooth on his phone was undoubtedly the cause of my Wife's 'alert'. It spoilt our Christmas, but then someone would argue that if it was 'for real' Covid would definitely spoilt our Christmas by possibly killing us both as we were at the time, both unvaccinated. I'm still bloody angry about it though!


At the end of the day, life (and death) goes on, and this is coming from someone who has lost a parent this year (not to Covid). I'm now using my own personal judgement on when/where I should wear a mask until the Government launch another round of infringments on our liberty and then I'll go back to being a good boy and complying. I get it that some viewers here will think I'm sort of middle aged selfish toe rag, but there it is. I will say though, if I were to be in the presence of someone who was wearing a mask in a personal setting and they asked me to put a mask on, then I would if it made them feel more comfortable.

As an update to this, I've just come back from visiting my local Coop store. There was roughly a 50/50 mix of mask wearers and non mask wearers. The shop staff on the tills weren't wearing them and I realise that apparently, they don't have to anyway if they don't wish. Still I don't think it will be too long before many just drop their guard and stop wearing them. We're not a nation of mask wearers irrespective of the current situation.
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Last edited by frupi; 20-07-2021 at 12:28. Reason: Update
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