Coronavirus - The Thread :(

[e42b]

Ok, i'll be fully vaccinated (twice + a fortnight) in a week but i'll not change my mask-wearing and distance keeping habits. I know that a lot of people will do the opposite. So, i consider it to be my duty to do all that i can to reduce the infection speed.
Anyway, i don't consider at least 30% of the German population to do so. In face of that i'm glad that politics in my country are helpful in a way that they are speeding down the general opening.

 

[09 johno]

Have you met the Great British public?

unfortunaley yes, I work with some great examples, had 7 positive cases in one day out of a team of 55 (all work in separate locations)of which 30% are already in isolation due to being pinged by the the track and trace app. age range 18-25......

 

[gar074]

So, even though you think its wrong, you are going to take personal responsibility to protect yourself and others around you, so is the decision wrong to give a choice?

Yes, because the issue is not about risk solely to oneself (in which case the personal choice/responsibility argument would be stronger) but risk to others. It's depressing that, 18 months into this pandemic, people still have difficulty grasping that wearing a mask (unless it's FFP2/3) is about avoiding transmission from the mask-wearer to others. As a society, we've imposed lots of restrictions on personal choice for the benefit of others (speed limits, smoking bans, etc). This is no different.

I do agree that the sudden ending of restrictions should be in more stages, but we are all capable to risk assess our own position and make the best decision for ourselves.

Two points on this. First, as pointed about above, this is not just about ourselves, and the risk to ourselves. Our decisions may have life-changing implications for others. Some people unfortunately lack empathy and are only capable of thinking/caring about themselves. And secondly, you only have to look at the insane crowd behaviour last weekend to realise that many people are just too poorly informed (or in some cases too stupid) to make the best health-related decisions even for themselves.

Oh, and on ventilation, there's been virtually no change in the government guidance on ventilation in public buildings etc during the pandemic, let alone any change to the H&S regulations on the matter. The existing regulations on ventilation are not adequate to protect against transmission of a highly infectious and potentially deadly virus. Many other countries are now way ahead of us on this. Most people don't appreciate that the ventilation systems in many of the 'sheds' in which we do our shopping etc operate by recycling the air internally (especially when the heating is on, but not only then), which, given that Covid is aerosol-transmitted, is a sure-fire way of spreading the infection.

One simple step, to give customers the information they need in order to make a more informed choice about whether a shop/bar/venue is safe enough for them to enter, would be to require all premises to install a CO2 meter (not expensive), as these give a good idea of how effective the ventilation is inside.

 

[StevenRB45]

Moved my 2nd Vaccine appointment forward to Tomorrow in anticipation of "freedom day".

Got no plans to be doing anything differently after it for some time.

Done a few indoor things of late...not a fan until this **** has properly gone. At least I know I've had it and it did very little to me personally so my level of concern is fairly low.

 

[09 johno]

would be to require all premises to install a CO2 meter (not expensive), as these give a good idea of how effective the ventilation is inside.

You love the band wagon don't you, my normal working environment is inside steel boxes with recirculated ventilation (ships)
Co2 monitors in shops will not be effective as the cubic area is to large to see any significant increase, If the shop is crowded don't go in (personal responsibilty again). properly designed vent systems with active carbon scrubbers UV lights and filters are far more effective but very, very expensive.
A simple solution is to Just open the bloody windows or to wear a forced air supply face mask.
None of this needs to be in legislated for it is just common sense,
I don't need a law to tell me I have to get up in the morning and go to bed at night unless you really want to live in 1984.

 

[gar074]

None of this needs to be in legislated for it is just common sense, I don't need a law to tell me I have to get up in the morning and go to bed at night unless you really want to live in 1984.

I'm sure you don't, but that doesn't answer my main point in my previous post.

 

[s130]

Well I normally stay out of these types of discussions but I'll now chip in WITH NO comment or referral to other posts saying they are right, wrong, ....

My personal view is July 19 would be best apportioned/balanced to say/do:

a) Mask are legally required in all shops, transport, etc. i.e. enclosed public environments

b) Companies with employees can relax in accordance with guidelines. NOTE Employees are under direct control etc. of their employer who is legally required to comply.

c) Social Companies (pups / clubs ) should be seriously considering STRICT admissions requirements

My possibly biased / objectional view point is "Oh I just want to party, etc. *uck the rest of you". Sorry you are socially wrong, self centred and .......)

This then brings me back to government views/statements that us are all sensible. How so wrong. Most are but the minority, even larger minority don't give an F. These minority breed infections and places we do not want to go.

Time will tell and I gather other countries are looking closely now at the UK.

 

[portland_bill]

This then brings me back to government views/statements that us are all sensible.

The 'sensible majority' voted this government in, so they must be good, right?

(Not politically biased, this statement will work for any elected government, anywhere.)

 

[portland_bill]

Why does the government plan changes from a Monday? Each time there have been 'releases', people go withthem from the start of the weekend, not waiting until the Monday.

There are a few vehicles missing from the street already, most went Saturday, a couple late Friday.

Now, should I book a holiday, or will I get more from booking a holiday for next door?

 

[frupi]

Well, me and the Wife, both in our 50's, went into town yesterday for a mooch around the shops. We did of course take our masks but it became quite evident that on entering a lot of the shops, many members of shop staff had also simply stopped wearing masks and this I think influenced the decisions on some of the customers, so much so, I threw caution to the wind and stopped wearing mine. Selfish? maybe, but those that wished to wear their masks continued to do so, even in a sweltering temperature outside of 30 degrees. I will say though, there was a fair and even mix of both young people and elderly not wearing masks in the shops. I have to say though, I was a bit surprised at just how many folks who appeared to be in their late 60's up, weren't wearing masks in a crowded setting. Many were with whom I assumed to be, their own grand children, who of course weren't wearing masks anyway. I stress that what I experienced yesterday, was a real world situation. I was in a crowded seaside resort with thousands of people milling about and people were making personal judgements on their surroundings and situation.


I received my first jab four months ago and my second jab six weeks ago. Am I afraid? I have to say, honestly, no, just as I had zero hesitaton on getting both of my jabs at the earliest opportunity. I worked in the retail sector for most of last year in shop fitting/maintenance and I suffered no ill effects from Covid. Am I lucky? possibly. The way I see it though is this, we're stuck with Covid forever, it's never going to go away. We have to live (and die) with it. I'm not going to let Covid influence every single thing I do in my life. I don't let seasonal flu spoil my life. Yes I accept flu is a bit different and in the grand scheme of things against Covid, is probably not a fair comparison, but we live with seasonal flu and every year, seemingly thousands of people die from it and there isn't a big hooha about it because people stopped thinking about it long ago. In fairness, I do actually get my flu jab every year (which I pay for), so I have been mitigating the risk for several years now.


Oh, and let's mention that NHS test and trace app. I've never downloaded onto my phone and nor will I. The amount of people getting 'pinged' who may have been within several metres of someone who has allegedly tested positive for Covid, is astounding. My Wife had the App on her phone and she got 'pinged' back at Christmas time. We/she, hadn't been out for days prior to the 'ping'. It turned out that our next door neighbour with whom we had had no physical contact, did have Covid and his bluetooth on his phone was undoubtedly the cause of my Wife's 'alert'. It spoilt our Christmas, but then someone would argue that if it was 'for real' Covid would definitely spoilt our Christmas by possibly killing us both as we were at the time, both unvaccinated. I'm still bloody angry about it though!


At the end of the day, life (and death) goes on, and this is coming from someone who has lost a parent this year (not to Covid). I'm now using my own personal judgement on when/where I should wear a mask until the Government launch another round of infringments on our liberty and then I'll go back to being a good boy and complying. I get it that some viewers here will think I'm sort of middle aged selfish toe rag, but there it is. I will say though, if I were to be in the presence of someone who was wearing a mask in a personal setting and they asked me to put a mask on, then I would if it made them feel more comfortable.

As an update to this, I've just come back from visiting my local Coop store. There was roughly a 50/50 mix of mask wearers and non mask wearers. The shop staff on the tills weren't wearing them and I realise that apparently, they don't have to anyway if they don't wish. Still I don't think it will be too long before many just drop their guard and stop wearing them. We're not a nation of mask wearers irrespective of the current situation.

 

[pooroldcodger]

Well said that man!
But unfortunately be prepared for the onslaught from the "experts" !
Perhaps the people in the shops have realised like you that this is a personal choice and that the idea of protecting others rather than yourself sounds great, and if it were demonstrably true would be a different matter. But can anybody explain how a non-surgical spec mask (like most of us are wearing) that has holes far larger than the virus aerosols and gaps round the sides can protect either the wearer or the other person? Is there a one-way filter we are not aware of?

 

[e42b]

The way protection happens via such a mask is by slowing down the outblowing speed. If you are wearing such a mask, and you are keeping a certain distance to the opposite, you are moving mostly in your own blow-outs with only a little of the latter passing over to the opposite person. If it is windy the outblow is spread very early because its speed is quite low in relation to the surrounding wind.
There will be no 100% protection possible, anyway. What can be done quite easily is to reduce the risk for others to be infected.

 

[gar074]

Well said that man!
But unfortunately be prepared for the onslaught from the "experts" !
Perhaps the people in the shops have realised like you that this is a personal choice and that the idea of protecting others rather than yourself sounds great, and if it were demonstrably true would be a different matter. But can anybody explain how a non-surgical spec mask (like most of us are wearing) that has holes far larger than the virus aerosols and gaps round the sides can protect either the wearer or the other person? Is there a one-way filter we are not aware of?

Well, we've all had enough of "experts", haven't we? After all, what the hell do they know?

If you're still in the dark, 18 months into the pandemic, about the effectiveness of masks in stopping the exhalation of droplets, then heaven help us all.

 

[frupi]

But unfortunately be prepared for the onslaught from the "experts" !

Quite honestly, I'm now completely past caring what others think about me. My Wife and I have just returned from a shop at a major name supermarket, and just to be mindful of others, I did actually put my mask on. That was until within 30 seconds of walking through an isle, an announcement came over the tannoy, one of those pre-recorded things stating that although Govenment guidelines have now changed so that people aren't officially required to wear masks etc etc. The supermarket advice remains that shoppers and staff should continue to do so where possible, normal exemptions apply for those that either genuinely can't wear a mask. I say genuinely, because I've met more than one person who has admitted they purposely sourced one of those 'special lanyards' to make others think they had a genuine health reason why they couldn't wear a mask. Yes, those people really do exist, but no one calls them out for fear of the backlash.


But to my point, it was then on looking around, that I noticed almost all of the floor staff in the supermarket weren't wearing a mask, just a couple of staff on the tills, but most everyone else not wearing them. So my mask came off, but then probably 60 percent of all of the customers in there had also chosen not to wear a mask.

As I said previously, Covid is undoubtedly here with us for life and we will learn to both live and die with it just as we live and die with so many other things that afflict the human race. I'm not going to argue with anyone who wants to shut themselves off from the rest of society for the remainder of their days. I hear what they say and I respect their right to give their viewpoint but I'm going to get on with my life Covid or no Covid, mask or no mask.


At the end of the day, people are very naturally scared of Covid, just as they were scared of AIDS/HIV, but it will pass. C'est la vie.

 

[pooroldcodger]

Well, we've all had enough of "experts", haven't we? After all, what the hell do they know?

If you're still in the dark, 18 months into the pandemic, about the effectiveness of masks in stopping the exhalation of droplets, then heaven help us all.

I would like to add that I have never not worn a mask in places where I have been required to, although I could have easily claimed legitimate medical exemption.
If I or anybody else was coughing and spluttering then we should not be in other people's faces and should stay at home.
From what I have read and heard the way that this virus is spread is via aerosol transmission and I can not find any definitive studies on the effectiveness of everyday cheap masks for preventing this because as somebody I heard said recently it is like trying to use a chain link fence to keep mosquitoes out. If such a study exists please send me the link anybody.
The face mask issue is being nudged again by the behavioural "scientists" who are running this show as being a simple choice of "wear one if you are a good guy and don't if you are selfish".
I would say that unfortunately but perhaps understandably all of our reactions to this situation are based on how they affect us personally.
So if you are for example a retired public sector worker who rarely goes to the shops, couldn't care less about the travel industry, and doesn't need to worry about earning a living because you have a lovely state pension, then you will have a certain view and can afford yourself the luxury of thinking you are taking the moral high ground. But if you are a self-employed person who has spent their life building up a business only to see it destroyed are you not going to question more some of the ludicrous decisions that are being made by this weak and utterly incompetent government?
My final word on this is that this is a car forum and we should all be very careful about pinning our colours too firmly to one mast or other because we are an awful long way from knowing the truth of how this pandemic has been handled. Indeed I bet we never truly will. So we are all speaking with partial knowledge at best, and might end up looking very silly indeed.
if we are still around in a few years time, I still want to be able to talk about my little Panda "Colour" and not be thought of as a bloke who held a different view to somebody else, but never did anything to put anybody else in danger - just the opposite in fact.

 

[portland_bill]

From what I have read and heard the way that this virus is spread is via aerosol transmission and I can not find any definitive studies on the effectiveness of everyday cheap masks for preventing this because as somebody I heard said recently it is like trying to use a chain link fence to keep mosquitoes out. If such a study exists please send me the link anybody.

My understanding is that whilst the virus is significantly smaller than the mask holes, the moisture droplets that carry it are mostly caught by the mask. This is why the mask gets damp inside. So they are most effective at preventing the wearer spreading what they might have.

Generally, when speaking, exhaled droplets will fall within 1.5m, hence the 2m rule. When speaking more loudly, shouting, or singing, the droplets are exhaled faster, and can dry out in flight, leaving the virus airborne. This is why gatherings like parties and weddings were restricted, as noise levels cause people to shout, as do night clubs, etc. You'd have thought that cinemas could have stayed open, aren't people supposed to be quiet there?

If the mask is used for some time, or when using a degree of effort, it can get quite wet inside. At that time it should be replaced, and the used one disposed of carefully, or washed. I think we were supposed to carry plastic bags to put them in. (Like a doggy-doo bag, but without the need for a dog.)

If the outside of the mask is touched, (none of us do that do we?), the moisture can be forced/drawn through the mask, allowing the virus, if present, to be expelled. Also, once the barrier is breached in this way, virus particles landing on the outside, can transfer to the inside via the moisture, to be inhaled by the wearer. (Like a tent that keeps the rain out, until you touch it, then the water passes through becuase the sufrace tension is broken.)

There appears to have been almost no flu cases last winter, suggesting that mask wearing does have some effect.

 

[jimboy]

I’m seeing food shortages when I’m out doing the weekly shop, apparently drivers are being “pinged” and having to isolate. Drivers are becoming less and less up here. Our local paper has printed, don’t panic buy Aye! Right, no one will think of doing such a thing will they?

 

[Johnbee]

Coronavirus - The Thread ?

I went out and did my usual weekly supplies shop today, in my nearest Tesco (albeit in the next town Bexhill, but the perfect excuse to take my classic Panda out along the seafront)

It was exactly as last Friday, with the vast majority wearing masks. Plenty of hand sanitizer and cleaned trollies. The only staff not wearing masks were on the tills, behind screens. They are still running the traffic light entry system but it’s never busy in the mornings, so the light is always green. I’ve yet to have to queue there.

No food shortages per say - and no sign of anyone panic buying.
A couple of things I normally buy were not available, but I easily found suitable alternatives.

Farm shop for dog food and petrol station to pop a tenner in the old girl also found everyone masked up.

 

[jrkitching]

It was exactly as last Friday, with the vast majority wearing masks. Plenty of hand sanitizer and cleaned trollies.

Much the same here in rural Dorset.

 

[portland_bill]

Tesco Swindon seemed OK for stock, but Sainsbury's looked like some sections were having a closing down sale.

Covid app is pinging excessively, as it will pick up bluetooth presence, which is quoted as having a range of up to 10metres. It is therefore pinging people who may not be at risk at all, and soon will get ignored, or turned off/uninstalled. Then we'll miss the real carriers.

Driver shortage is also affected by many EU citizens going home, having not done the paperwork to stay by the deadline.